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I unfortunately have no scanner here but here are some stats for the He-177A5 (Nowarra, Vol.2, p.230f.):
...
The range is given with 3.700 Km, payload not specified.
Cruise speed is given with 510 Km/h, payload not specified.
top speed is given with 540 Km/h, payload not specified.
I think your general point is reasonable, but I'd question the numbers somewhat on B-29's. The USAAF Statistics Digest gives 414 B-29's lost on combat missions (how I would interpret 'on operations') of which 147 were specifically attributed to enemy action. (that represented a 1.3% per sortie loss rate for the total; and it includes both China and Marianas operations; 8th/15th sortie loss rate was 1.6%). Maybe your total includes training including in the US? Also, some B-29 losses to 'other cause on combat mission' might be planes damaged over Japan by enemy action. On a tangent, it's often said that that's true of B-29 loss accounting in Korea but tracking down each one I found it was rarely true, the official combat loss number was approximately correct in that war, but I've seen several examples in WWII where damaged planes that couldn't make it back all the way to the Mariana's were counted as 'other'. The % might be higher than in Korea also, though I'm not sure how high. At some point somebody may go through all the WWII B-29 losses from original records and reclassify their causes (or maybe somebody has, but not that I know of); AFAIK the details still exist.In fact, and as i seem to recall, loss rate for the B-29 is worse: a total of ~1,950 ships delivered losing ~650 from all causes...consider timeframes for B-29 operations in the PTO and the result ain´t very flattering: first bombing runs were flown from India and China (June 1944); first combat missions flown in the Pacific did not occur until late 1944 (October) involving B-29s based in the Marianas...during said period of time the Japanese aerial forces of the time were in real poor shape, nowhere near close to the type of fighter opposition faced by the 8th and 15th AFs in the ETO during the same time. Of the approximate ~650 B-29´s lost in operations, something around ~120 were due to enemy action, less than 25% of the total losses....
I think your general point is reasonable, but I'd question the numbers somewhat on B-29's. The USAAF Statistics Digest gives 414 B-29's lost on combat missions (how I would interpret 'on operations') of which 147 were specifically attributed to enemy action. (that represented a 1.3% per sortie loss rate for the total; and it includes both China and Marianas operations; 8th/15th sortie loss rate was 1.6%). Maybe your total includes training including in the US? Also, some B-29 losses to 'other cause on combat mission' might be planes damaged over Japan by enemy action. On a tangent, it's often said that that's true of B-29 loss accounting in Korea but tracking down each one I found it was rarely true, the official combat loss number was approximately correct in that war, but I've seen several examples in WWII where damaged planes that couldn't make it back all the way to the Mariana's were counted as 'other'. The % might be higher than in Korea also, though I'm not sure how high. At some point somebody may go through all the WWII B-29 losses from original records and reclassify their causes (or maybe somebody has, but not that I know of); AFAIK the details still exist.
Also turning your point around about opposition, lack of consisently highly tough opposition is one reason the proportion of operational losses was higher for the B-29; the more difficult operational conditions, distance particularly, were another. Also, the opposition varied a lot, was not consistently weak. The intial campaign from the Marianas v Japan Nov '44-Feb '45 was unescorted in daylight, with no 'milk runs' available v targets in occupied Europe like the 8th could do when it needed a break from its attempt at unescorted raids over Germany ca. 1943. And the Japanese rammed extensively, see Henry Sakaida's "B-29 Hunters of the JAAF" for two-sided treatment; that accounted for most of the B-29's downed by hostile action in that initial phase, and was quite a difficult tactic the 8th and 15th seldom had to deal with. Later on opposition waned, both in the night raids from March 1945 for which Japan was less prepared and when daylight ops resumed alongside night from April to the end of the war.
But I agree with you, the B-29 in its early WWII operation mid 1944- early 45 was a pretty buggy airplane, I don't think anyone familiar with its history would contest that as general statement. And not all those bugs were ever competely ironed out; it still suffered a somewhat elevated operational loss rate even in Korea, though much lower by then, and lower even as 1945 went on.
Joe
In this type of threads there will always be this sort of automatic tendency to consider the Allied hardware the best.
All too true
I am sure the He 177 was a very fine craft with lots of potential -and not necessarily more technical problems than the B-29- but saw service in limited numbers and did not have any chance for making any measurable contribution in favor of Germany´s war effort.
Also true
I have studied operations of KG 40 and KG 100 in the past -two units that used the He 177 in operations- and their loss ratio seemed anything but "catastrophic". In fact, and as i seem to recall, loss rate for the B-29 is worse: a total of ~1,950 ships delivered losing ~650 from all causes...consider timeframes for B-29 operations in the PTO and the result ain´t very flattering: first bombing runs were flown from India and China (June 1944); first combat missions flown in the Pacific did not occur until late 1944 (October) involving B-29s based in the Marianas...during said period of time the Japanese aerial forces of the time were in real poor shape, nowhere near close to the type of fighter opposition faced by the 8th and 15th AFs in the ETO during the same time. Of the approximate ~650 B-29´s lost in operations, something around ~120 were due to enemy action, less than 25% of the total losses...this leaves a 75% of losses due to causes other than enemy actions: accidents, technical problems...could this lead us to assume the B-29 was not as good as portrayed?
Udet - there is nothing like a 1,500 mile return trip to surface mechanical problems, 200 mph headwinds, ets.
Correct me if necessary but while i could not mention details on the matter, there were some technical problems on the B-29 that were never solved during the time the model saw combat operations.
the 3350 was a dear! nothing like engine fires with 1500 miles of blue water to set your mind thinkin'
As a very young kid coming back from Japan in Nov 1950 we flew back in the KC 97 and I had the joy of watching #3 trail 50 foot flames before the pilot put them out in a dive. After two of these including an emergency landing at Johnson Is, my mother booked a Dutch freigter rather than do that again
If you consider the fact a large number of the He 177s deployed in operations flew their missions over the sea it would then be reasonable to assume the He 177 was a reliable plane, reliable enough to allow for such type of missions -this to counter the other classical tale of "never ending engine problems that plagued the bomber"-.
Hello Delcyros
a bit strange that Novarra gives exactly 100km/h greater max speed than that given in Griehl's and Dressel's book or in matter of fact in Brown's book. From G's D's book is clearly seen that they have went through a lot of original technical documents on He 177. In my copy of Brown's book I have noted on mariginal that on p. 207 of Roderich Cescotti's Kampfflugzeuge and Aufklärer in Die Deutsche Luftfahrt series, which I have understood is rather authorative book, gives the same specs than those in Brown's book but some ammo figures plus some extra info, propeller diameter etc. Now I cannot recall exactly what the He 177 pages looked in Cescotti's book but I recall that in Do 17 part he had reproduced pages from original pilot's notes and speed graps because some of them were the same that can be found from Finnish Air Force papers. What's your opinion on Cescotti's book?
Juha
Also consider the airframe itself. Was their room for growth? The B29 added a crew member with specialized eqmt (radar and ECM) AFTER the design had been frozen and it was in production. Could the German design do that? It looked awfully cramped in there. Hardly any room to add all new weapons systems and additional aircrew.
What about the bomb bay? Could it handle oversize bomb loads without airframe modifications? The B29 could handle internal stowage of any bomb the allies had, save two.... the Grand slam and A-Bomb.
Thanks Delcyros
I'm still a bit sceptical. IMHO the weight itself should not have very big influence on speed, but of course I might be wrong. 177A-3 usually carried its bombs internally, IIRC only 2*SC2500 load was carried externally, so dropping the bombs should not have very big effect on speed. But not being expert on this I can be in error. I'm very busy now so I don't have time to check but IIRC max speed of Do17Z-2 at max load was 425km/h and 433km/h at 75% load according to German tests. So the speed difference wasn't big. It was different thing with a/c carrying most of their load externally, again IIRC Ju88A-4 max speed at max weight was 435km/h but after dropping its bombs its max speed was 475km/h.
Best Regards
Juha
Syscom...can you confirm the figure for B-29s produced during ww2?