B-17vsLancaster

[plan_D]

What about Dresden? That's a city, the Americans wanted to destroy it which they basically did.

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

you can't bomb accuratly at night, even with the norden, primarily because you can't even see your target.........

 

[Lightning Guy]

Ok. So we've agreed that you can't bomb accurately at night. That's an advantage to the B-17 (hopefully we could agree on that). That also comensated for the B-17's smaller bomb load since it's bombs were more likley to be on target.

Dresden was bomb by American planes, but it was also bombed by the British. It was the RAF that dropped the incendiaries that proved to be so devestating.

 

[plan_D]

The Americans still carpet bombed it, that was my point.

 

[Lightning Guy]

The Americans did carpet bomb on occassion, but (in general) they did not practice area bombing in the sense that the British did.

 

[Gemhorse]

I totally refute that the accuracy of RAF bombing as being inferior to the B-17 daylight raids. - The earlier RAF daylight raids with less capable aircraft than Lancasters, proved to them that if German night-raiding was good enough for Them, it was going to be for the RAF, who were getting a better grip on the Electronic side of Radio Direction Finding, to assist them to find and establish by Marking the Aiming-point for Bombing. - The RAF mastered the Art of Night-Bombing ! - Curtis LeMay, the American Commander of the US bombing of Japan, learned from his tour with 8th AF, that the RAF style of bombing at night , was the only way they could reduce the grossly-high B-29 attrition rate over Japan [and the lousy results,] later on, was by using the same lower bombing heights, with the same style of H2s bombing radar.- Furthermore, the RAF usually used a 4000lb 'cookie' blast-bomb with incendaries to create greater damage with accuracy, sometimes creating firestorms...Dresden was one of them, but it took successive raids to achieve this...but Bomber Command went from success to success once the got Pathfinding and the Light Night Strike Force going....

 

[brad]

the lanc ruled

 

[plan_D]

The RAF had a great success rate, late in the war. And I'm not liking the way Lightning Guy is trying to pass on War Crimes commited by America on to Britain. We both did it.

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

but the russians did it more than us.............

Furthermore, the RAF usually used a 4000lb 'cookie' blast-bomb with incendaries to create greater damage with accuracy

the standard 14,000lb load was amde up of 1x8,000lb and 6x1,000lb..........

 

[plan_D]

Russians did more what? Carpet Bombing?

 

[Lightning Guy]

I wasn't denying that America did it. American decimated several Japanese cities. Over Europe, however, the Americans did not have the general habit of dropping massive numbers of incendiaries like the British did. And besides, we are the only country to ever nuke another (and frankly that's a record I would like us to keep).

The Lancasters did eventually achieve impressive results bombing at night but not until late it the war. And I believe that the whole point of the "accuracy" issue was that the B-17's smaller load was not such a liability since it's bombing was generally more accurate.

 

[Gemhorse]

I've already made two extensive replies to your statement Lightning, but they 'went west' and failed to get posted [!??] - The thrust of it though, is that both Air Forces didn't start getting it right until post-D-Day...'later in the War'... The Americans 'Strategic Bombing' was never proved successful, and only improved once Mustangs achieved Air Superiority. The RAF night bombing was accurate, H2S allowed them to bomb through cloud at night, which B-17's couldn't do during the day from height...The Germans bombed cities, so the RAF replied in kind - The bombing of Japan by B-29's used RAF technique, at night, after their gross losses forced them to, using not only incendiaries, but also napalm ! - the B-17 wasn't a very successful bomber, but it was a great morale-booster for recruitment earlier in the War, having first flown in 1937 - It's successive models became heavier slower, thinking to out-gun their way to targets. The Lancaster was a thoroughbred Bomber for night-attack, and accurate as Tallboys etc. testified; Even joining 4000lb blast-bombs together to 12,000lb could be seen as accurate in light of Target-Marking effectively...

 

[plan_D]

Very well said.
The German production did actually increase from 1939 - 1944 so, it proves that the bombing campaign wasn't going to well.

 

[Lightning Guy]

Then the Lanc must be considered a failure as well.

Yes the B-29s used an RAF style of bombing (thanks for admitting that anihilating cities was RAF style btw) over Japan but that was because the jet stream over Japan prevented accurate bombing from altitude. H2S was effective for bombing through cloud (the US used it as well H2X using a smaller wavelength) but it was rather late in the war. RAF studies from earlier in the war concluded that the average crew was doing well to get within 50 miles of the target. Even as Lanc accuracy improved it was dependent upon low-altitude marking by Mosquitoes.

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

i wish everyone would stop saying the B-17 was accurate, it wasn't the plane, it was the bomb sight, if the B-17 hadn't had the norden it wouldn't be that accurate................

 

[cheddar cheese]

it might be

 

[Lightning Guy]

B-17 and B-24 used the same bomb sight yet the B-17 was considered more accurate because it was a more stable design. Furtheremore, the bomb sight is an integral part of the design.

 

[plan_D]

No the studies were within 5 miles not 50. Doing well within 50 miles would be an awful navigational error.

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

Furtheremore, the bomb sight is an integral part of the design.

think about it, if the norden was fitted to the lancaster earlier, it would make it more accurate wouldn't it?

 

[cheddar cheese]

not sure, lancs bombed at night remember...