B-17vsLancaster

[Gemhorse]

Another marvellous piece of British electronic aid was 'Oboe', which greatly assisted RAF Bomber Command whose main targets at the time were in the Industrial Ruhr Valley, 1942-43. - On Jan. 9th '43, using 'Oboe', they hit the Krupps Works at Essen through solid cloud with a moderate force of Lancasters bombing on the sky-markers - Hitler immediately called a meeting, and totally frothed at the bung, claiming 'holes in the cloud', but his officials were adamant it was solid-cover - All this was discovered in German records after the War, but not only H2S but Oboe as well, greatly contributed to the RAF not just shattering German targets, but their morale as well....Did you get that date, Lightning...9th January 1943. - That's about when RAF Bombing Accuracy started to come on line ...

 

[Lightning Guy]

And Oboe was hard pressed to reach the Ruhr valley while a B-17 could bomb accurately wherever in went from day one of the war. And what if Oboe had been fitted to the B-17? Wouldn't it have been more accurate?

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

remebr the brittish were (and still are) the world leaders in electronic warfare, we as good as invented it...........

 

[plan_D]

He's got that right, the British and (As much as it sounds silly) the French are the leaders in avionics.

 

[Lightning Guy]

But much of the electronic stuff the British invented during the war was enhanced by America. H2X was an American version of H2S but it used a shorter wavelength to produce better resolution.

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

but would could use 1 planes to make an entire formation os lancasters seem invisible on german radar....................

 

[plan_D]

Was enhanced by America then, yes, but it again goes the other way. Look at the CH-47 Chinooks record the British improved that greatly, well actually the British improved Helicopters altogether with their rotor blades

 

[Lightning Guy]

And that's all because our two countries have maintained such friendly ties. And the much of the jamming gear developed by the British was used by American bombers as well. And you have to remember that British technology was a bane to them as well since German night fighters learned to home in on H2S, Monica, and IFF.

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

yeah but on the subject of chinooks, we just spent £259,000,000 on 8 if them, the computers won't let them be flown above 2,000ft or in light fog, it's gonna cost about £240,000,000 to fix them...................

 

[plan_D]

That's not because of faulty eletronics, that's because of lack of government funding, because they are tight. The Chinooks you mentioned have got half digital and half analogue because the government was too cheap to fit full digital.
The Danish have the same system but with full digital and they work fine.

The original Chinooks that we got (My dad one of the first six electricians trained on them) were fine, and then were improved greatly from such simple things as adding 2 extra winch hooks to changing the avionics.

If the government had funded these new Chinooks originally it would have been cheaper.

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

didn't know that, cheers...............

 

[plan_D]

Yes, blame the government not the plane. The Chinook is one of the best helicopters ever and wasn't in need of much improvment when we got it off the Yanks, but we still improved it greatly.

 

[Gemhorse]

Britain always stayed one jump ahead in the Electronic War, the cumulative effect of ALL bombing lead to the German defeat. - Also, the Norden bombsight was first used on 18th March 1943, and was linked to the autopilot...[ 'Look Ma, no hands...']... - I'm not an aircraft-manufacturer looking for a contract, so I don't have anything to prove; Just my extensive reading of Bomber Command's War proves to me that British thoroughness ingenuity, the old saying of ' British soft of hand, hard of heart' attitude, was what made their efforts pay-off - 'Bomber' Harris, C in C of Bomber Command wasn't into 'panacea' targets, just bit by bit, flatten them...He allowed the formation of Pathfinders, for overall accuracy, and 617 Sqn. to deliver any 'specialist accuracy'...- The 8th AF wanted to prove what the British had already found-out the hard-way, that daylight -bombing against an enemy who had Air Superiority wasn't going to work...so they embarked on their 'Strategic Air Offensive' - Meanwhile, Britain followed the 'dirty bomb-in-the-dark Nazis' when they'd given-up bombing England, and followed them back over the Channel , and returned-in-kind, times a thousand-fold, the bombing...The American Strategic Air Offensive indeed made the B-17 famous, by the blood shed trying to conduct an Offensive without first achieving Air Superiority...that wasn't achieved until much later, when a weakened Germany from two Air Forces bombing, lost Air Superiority;- to nightfighting, to combined Allied Fighters on daylight patrols, and sensible long-range escort fighters, like the Mustang [with a Merlin in it], P-38's, P-47's and Tempests....

 

[plan_D]

A very strict, punishing reply. I actually knew all that but I never was any good in words, so I wouldn't have been able to say it like that. And I'm still saying that in 1941 the bombings were classed as a hit within 5 miles, not 50.
50 would be just stupid, the Navigator must have been blind or something. 50 miles off course and you're lost. Might I add the Mosquito contribution to this, which bombed countless targets not just the famous ones.

 

[Gemhorse]

Yes, thank you plan_D, and you're quite right about the 5 miles...there were serious navigational errors too, as Britain was on the back foot and had to do something - Both Allies were on the back foot initially, in their respective theatres, B-17's in the Phillipines copped it too, after Pearl...it was a hard slog to develop all bombing techniques for them, both Axis powers having Spain China [respectively] to practice on first...And the Mosquitos too - they really were a divine intervention when they became operational...[not like me to forget to mention them !!]...and the Havoc did also play a pivotal role earlier on too, in both East Western theatres....

 

[Lightning Guy]

I have seen the figure of fifty published. And that doesn't seem to be too ridiculous when you think about it. The Germans were very good about air raid discipline so you don't have very many (if any) lights on the ground to go by. You also do have any electronic aids that were developed later in the war.

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

we were, and still are, the world leaders in electronic warfare, like i said, we could make an entire formation of bombers seem to dissapear.................

 

[cheddar cheese]

but wouldnt literally disappear be more effective?

 

[plan_D]

In 1940 and 1941 they weren't always bombing by night, plus navigational isn't a matter of seeing (Always a plus if you can though) you plot with altitude, speed and heading.

 

[Lightning Guy]

Yes, that's called dead reckoning and it's extremely unreliable unless you have something to update your position from time to time. You have to remember wind speed, direction, variations in instrument readings. If you can see something on the ground (either visually or through radar) to update your position you can get off quite easily.