B-17vsLancaster

[plan_D]

Even then going off 50 miles would have meant you were lost.

 

[Lightning Guy]

Did you mean to say "wouldn't have meant?" It wouldn't have made you lost, but I think we can all agree that a few thousand pounds of bombs dropped 50 miles from the target does little good.

 

[plan_D]

50 miles is a long way to be straying off course, even in the air. And they didn't stray that far, IT WAS 5 MILES!

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

the study (if it's the same one i'm on about) concluded that only 10% of bombs we getting to within 5 miles of the target................

 

[Lightning Guy]

So if 10% where within 5 then my comment that the average crew was only within 50 miles makes perfect sense. Over a five hour mission it only takes a 10mph wind to push you 50 miles off course.

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

but a navigator can adjust his course to allow for that..................

 

[Lightning Guy]

He can if he is able to accurately measure the speed and direction of the wind (which wasn't always possible) or he can fix his position over a known ground position. The later can only be done with if the ground can clearly be seen (difficult at night) or through RADAR or other gadgets (not available at the start of the war).

 

[plan_D]

Early war the RAF wasn't just bombing at night though.

 

[Lightning Guy]

True, but they didn't have the escorts or the armament for that to be successful, which is why they shifted to night raids.

 

[plan_D]

Yes, but I was saying they weren't 50 miles off.

 

[Lightning Guy]

During daylight no, but at night, over a blacked-out Germany, getting 50 miles off course is not hard to do.

 

[plan_D]

If you were trying to be that far off, yes. 50 miles off is a SERIOUS navigational error, meaning you're lost. Not only are you going to miss the target, you're going to be very lucky to get home.
It really wasn't that bad, 5 miles is much more realistic.

 

[Gemhorse]

Well, the interesting thing was that navigation was really tested in those earlier days...Also, as happened later in the War, weather-info became very important - Even with all the gadgets later, strong winds not accurately forecasted , could still blow the Bomber Force a 100+ miles off-course if not checked. - AVM. Don Bennett, who started-up the Pathfinder Force, was an ex-Flying-Boat pilot, used to long-range navigation, and one of the first things he did on taking-up the Command, was to give intensive Navigation Training to his crews...and get the best of what was then available of Navigation equiptment - this was in July 1942...

 

[plan_D]

Exactly, and 100 + miles was also if unchecked, I think they'd check it. And the bombing raids didn't really get going until 1941, although as soon as BoB was over the 1000 bomber raids happened, that's right a year before both Russia and America got involved.

 

[Lightning Guy]

So how did they check it? No Radar? No vision of the groung? And wind isn't a constant remember. 50 miles DOES mean you will miss the target but is not hard to do.

 

[plan_D]

You use your brain, you check windspeed and and change heading to keep you on course. 50 miles DOES mean you've missed the target but they didn't miss 50 miles off target, it was 5 miles.

 

[Lightning Guy]

Not every plane was equipped to check windage. And you can't check in constantly. During WWII, navagational errors due to wind were corrected my updating your position by fixing yourself over the ground. That wasn't an option during the early days of the war.

On August 18th, 1941, the RAF received the Butt report detailing bombing accuracy so far. The report found that only 1 in 4 crews CLAIMING to have bombed the target manage to hit it and that only 10% of the crews got within five miles. A quick check of the math means that 90% were MORE than 5 miles away.

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

i read that later on in the war a lanc was on a datlight raid and the navigator couldn't be botherd to move his cup, so he sent the pilot on a course around his cup on the map, another one took it a bit further and layed out a sort of obsticle course on the map, his CO was not ammused.................

 

[plan_D]

Ok, so 10% were within 5 miles, this does not mean that 90% were 50 miles off target. The majority would be between 10 and 30 miles. 50 miles is a long way off course, and you would be struggling to find your way home being 50 miles off course.
If they are 50 miles off course when over their target, how are they going to find their airbase?

 

[Lightning Guy]

Being 50 miles off course is unlikely to cause you to miss Britain (it's a big island as I am sure you know). Upon returning to base the bombers would have the advantages of ground controllers, navigational beacons, and (depending on the range of the missions) possibly sunlight to aid them. By original comment that the AVERAGE crew was only within 50 miles of the target still sounds reasonable if the top 10% were only within 5.