B-29 Question

FLYBOYJ · Sep 16, 2005

I keep coming up with an AN/APG-8 gun sight radar being referenced to the B-29. Could these been incorporated into the B-29 turret gunsights?

FLYBOYJ · Sep 16, 2005

Got this from another site....

"All Gunners hy gyroscopic lead computing sights with stadiametric
ranging. As the Gunner tracked teh target, the gyroscopes measured
the rate of movement of the target in Azimuth and Elevation, The
Gunner would also track teh target in range, by using a "Motorcycle
throttle" type grip in the sight to size a ring of dots in the sight
picture to match the airplane's wingspan. Since the wingspan of an
attacking fighter would be known, or estimated slose enough, this
would give Range and Range Rate (Closing speed) information to hte
sight.

To add to this fine explanation, starting right around the beginning
of 1945, AN/APG-15 radars started making there way in B-29s. This was
a fairly small, cheap set that took much of the guesswork for figuring
range out of the gunners hands (although they could always go back to
the manual method, especially when the radars broke down)."

DaveB.inVa · Sep 16, 2005

The AN/APG-15 was the tail radar on a B-29B and I believe the 8 was an earlier version of that.

Heres a picture of a B-29B. You can see the Eagle Wing radar AN/APQ-7 between the bays and the 15 hanging off the tail.

FLYBOYJ · Sep 16, 2005

Yep - found the same info and the site on Frank Farrell - Great Stuff! On this site I found that shows radar equipment listings, it identifies the AN/APG-8 as a "radar gun sight," and the AN/APG-15 as a "tail gun turret radar." It would be nice to contact someone like Frank Farrel to confirm the absence/ installation of radar within the B-29 fire control system. I found many generalized references to it but no hard description.....

wmaxt · Sep 16, 2005

FLYBOYJ said:
Got this from another site....

"All Gunners hy gyroscopic lead computing sights with stadiametric
ranging. As the Gunner tracked teh target, the gyroscopes measured
the rate of movement of the target in Azimuth and Elevation, The
Gunner would also track teh target in range, by using a "Motorcycle
throttle" type grip in the sight to size a ring of dots in the sight
picture to match the airplane's wingspan. Since the wingspan of an
attacking fighter would be known, or estimated slose enough, this
would give Range and Range Rate (Closing speed) information to hte
sight.

To add to this fine explanation, starting right around the beginning
of 1945, AN/APG-15 radars started making there way in B-29s. This was
a fairly small, cheap set that took much of the guesswork for figuring
range out of the gunners hands (although they could always go back to
the manual method, especially when the radars broke down)."

Just talking with my dad ( he started crew cheifing on B-29s) about the B-29s fire control system. The standard model had radar but it was primarily for weather, the gunsights were manual. The B-29MR (Modified Reciever) aircraft were Nuclear capable and only the tail gun turret remained to squeez a little more speed out of them. This was in '52-'54 +/- So its possible that they were removed because the jets were too fast requiring the gunner to fire by instinct or they were to hard to maintain. Or possibly they just didn't use them here in the states to avoid haviving the extra load of maintaining them constantly.

Another thing was he described the airial refuling (MR) method. they used a cable and hose system which involved catching a cable, drawing the hose down and hooking it up and then reversing the procedure. When it came free he said "it felt like the rear of the plane was going with it.

He's looking for his Tech manual-1 that has all the basic systems information on the B-29. If he's able to find it I will get the info out. He's still sharp and described the whole system down to and including the central gun control and locations, so I don't think he just forgot but its been 53 years.

That probably doesn't help much but it's all I got right now.

wmaxt

DaveB.inVa · Sep 16, 2005

Actually I just sent an email to the B-29 group.... I'm pretty sure we'll hear from Farrell... hes uh kinda wild...

DaveB.inVa · Sep 16, 2005

Thats very cool about your dad. He was very fortunate to get around the MR's. They were basically post war Silverplates that belonged to the 509th CG

DaveB.inVa · Sep 16, 2005

The very first reply back on the B-29 Yahoo group was from Farrell. He's blunt, but put it short and sweet, here is his reply unmodified and in its entirety. The cap's are his not mine so don't be offended... I've heard it a few times from him before myself.

"If he knows of a radar that waist / Blister gunners had , he knows more than WE do! Range finding was the cookie handle and sight glass reticle which in adjusting the size of the target within the changing diameter of the light reticle, adjusted th erange MODESTLY through a relatively unsophisticated computer! NO RADAR! Farrell"

FLYBOYJ · Sep 16, 2005

This will be great to find out - I'm guessing my uncle had his explanation confused with the radar operator - the last time I saw him he was on dialysis

FLYBOYJ · Sep 16, 2005

DaveB.inVa said:
The very first reply back on the B-29 Yahoo group was from Farrell. He's blunt, but put it short and sweet, here is his reply unmodified and in its entirety. The cap's are his not mine so don't be offended... I've heard it a few times from him before myself.

"If he knows of a radar that waist / Blister gunners had , he knows more than WE do! Range finding was the cookie handle and sight glass reticle which in adjusting the size of the target within the changing diameter of the light reticle, adjusted th erange MODESTLY through a relatively unsophisticated computer! NO RADAR! Farrell"

Well there you have it, I'll take that to the bank!

I'm assuming his explination included the front top station as well?

wmaxt · Sep 16, 2005

DaveB.inVa said:
The very first reply back on the B-29 Yahoo group was from Farrell. He's blunt, but put it short and sweet, here is his reply unmodified and in its entirety. The cap's are his not mine so don't be offended... I've heard it a few times from him before myself.

"If he knows of a radar that waist / Blister gunners had , he knows more than WE do! Range finding was the cookie handle and sight glass reticle which in adjusting the size of the target within the changing diameter of the light reticle, adjusted th erange MODESTLY through a relatively unsophisticated computer! NO RADAR! Farrell"

My Dad described it the same way - I just couldn't be sure because he was there in the 50s and things change. There maybe confusion between the Central fire Controller and radar sighting. The controller decided which turret would fire at any particular plane.

He was out of Mtn. Home AFB about 50 mi from here and theres an airshow this weekend....

Wmaxt

DaveB.inVa · Sep 16, 2005

Did he ever have anything to do with any of the other bombers like the B-17, 24 or 32?

Another guy on the forum, Jim Peters, was a top turret gunner/FE on a B-17 and they had a rangefinding radar.

Im going to send some documents he sent me.

The documents are small but look on the second page at the bottom. You'll notice "AN/APQ-14 for B-29's" and later it says the AN/APQ-14 was secret.

This entire document was about rangefinding radars as well.... so who knows! I personally have never heard or seen anything about a rangefinding radar for the B-29 gunners but there may have been one in the works or something. Also the B-36 used a sight very similar to the recticle sights used on the B-29 and these werent radar ranged even with the advances that could've been used on the B-36.

DaveB.inVa · Sep 16, 2005

Here is some pages from a great site I had on my favorites!! The rest of the site is very good but these two pages in particular will go along with this conversation nicely.

http://www.rootsweb.com/~ny330bg/tail gunner.htm

http://www.rootsweb.com/~ny330bg/cfc.htm

evangilder · Sep 16, 2005

If it helps, here are some shots of the remote control gunsight from the B-29. There is an operating manual there as well. I will thumb through it on my next trip out there. I knew these might come in handy at some point.

syscom3 · Sep 16, 2005

I enlarged the picture and came up with the designation of the radar.

SCR-726 S-Band Airborne Fire-Control Radar Galvin Corp. (later AN/APG-5). Radar set, Gun laying, Automatic range finder, 2.5 GHz, Pulse, range 150-3000 yards, used on B-17 and B-24.

I found this interesting comment at http://www.armyairforces.com/forum/m_48030/mpage_1/tm.htm#48034

Im just curious though, where did they mount them? The turrets of the B29 were quite small. And Ive never seen a picture of them mounted in one of the gunner stations.

FLYBOYJ · Sep 16, 2005

This is great stuff guys, thanks for the participation! In reading some of the stuff I found earlier it made be believe that the AN/APG-8 was small and incorporated into an optical gun sight, I wonder if this was incorporated in the CFC's position?!? It also seems that if you had a MiG-15 coming out you at 600 MPH, completing the sighting process as described in the link might be a bit un-nerving!

Maybe uncle bill wasn't off the mark?!? Maybe we're not finding much on the radar sights because they were classified?!?! Uncle Bill talked about "firing the guns" as a secondary task, maybe he worked as a CFC?!? I'll show the equipment list links I found earlier....

Going off what I posted earlier (and what he told me) I vividly remember Uncle Bill saying there was a red illumiation within the site that gave the operator the cue to fire the guns. He went on to say this was difficult against the MiG-15

Great stuff guys, the -29 has always been one of my favorite planes (maybe because of Uncle Bill).

FLYBOYJ · Sep 16, 2005

syscom3 said:
I enlarged the picture and came up with the designation of the radar.

SCR-726 S-Band Airborne Fire-Control Radar Galvin Corp. (later AN/APG-5). Radar set, Gun laying, Automatic range finder, 2.5 GHz, Pulse, range 150-3000 yards, used on B-17 and B-24.

Sys - which picture did you enlarge?

DaveB.inVa · Sep 16, 2005

That link to armyairforces has a message from Jim Peters. Hes the one who sent me the files about the radar ranged turrets on the B-17.

I still believe the 8 was a precessor to the 15. Both are pretty large and weigh around 125lbs. The CFC's position barbers chair had the same basic sight as the blister gunners except the sight was mounted on a ring.

I had never thought of it before but the 14 mentioned in that text might have been meant for the B-29 should it have been equipped with manned turrets.

syscom3 · Sep 16, 2005

APG_5_ONE.JPG that DaveB.inVa posted.

DaveB, if possible, could you scan them in again under a higher resolution?

DaveB.inVa · Sep 16, 2005

I got those from Jim Peters. I dont know where he got them but I doubt he has them personally.

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