B-29 Question

[DaveB.inVa]

I've heard many times that there were B-50's over Korea, not as bombers but as ELINT ferrets. In fact one got shot down and crashed into the sea of Japan. I have a few pictures in books about the B-50's doing recon over there too.

Anyway I thought I'd email another guy I know. His name is Bob Mann and he has written a book on the B-29. He flew in them during Korea but was on a weather recon squadron on Guam. The cool part about him is he lives in the same town where I go to college. I've been out to his place and its awesome. He has a huge database on every (and I mean EVERY) B-29 built. His file is basically a huge excel file with each B-29 serial number. Beside that he has crew lists, notable features about the aircraft, what happened to it (ie lost, reclaimed, transferred to RAF). In other words its very very complete and I got to go check it out when I took a class last summer and had some free time!!

Anyway Bob sent me a couple things from his file which is AN 01-20EJ-2, the maintenance manual for the B-29.

He sent me the two relevant pages to the gunnery system in the manual. Since these are from the maintenance manual I think it'll be ok to post them since they are by now at least readily available if you know where to get the manual. In other words Im not stepping in on anything copyrighted in Bob's book!

He also said that the main guns were best described as computer assisted that required considerable input to the computer which then selects an aiming point for the guns in the turret selected.

Heres a link to Bob's book with some info about it.

http://www.alibris.com/search/searc...n&matches=6&qsort=r&cm_re=works*listing*title

 

[Nonskimmer]

I must say guys, this is an awesome thread. Some outstanding info here!

 

[syscom3]

Does anyone know if the APG-5 worked as advertized during an air battle in WW2?

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Once again grat syuff! The photo of Uncle Bill by the B-50 was taken I think at Barksdale - he said they were on their way to Japan to replace another crew. He said that when he returned to the US he and his crew found out the crew they replace had been shot down! Same crew!?!

 

[DaveB.inVa]

Got some more stuff. One is from a Korean War gunner, one from a WWII gunner, the other is from a guy who knows something about the AN/APQ-14. He's a museum director who has done lots of work with B-29 electronics, including rebuilding an entire turret and sight.... that works!! His opinion is much to be respected!

From the WWII gunner:

"I sincerely would like to see some finality to the constant questioning on the B-29's use, or non use of radar in the CFC system. I took the full training. On arriving at the 505th BG, 482nd Squadron approximately the First of April, 1945. we were assigned an almost new B-29 that was apparently delivered by a previous crew. It had no nose art and we were told that nose art was a no-no. There was no radar involved in the
Central Fire Control System. Distance from a fighter and it's approach speed were detected and passed on to the computer by way of the gunner's tracking the approach by use of a graticule circle in the gunsight, with a diameter adjusted as the gunner tracked the approach of the fighter. There was no radar involved in the gunner's work."

The Korean War gunner:

"While there were certainly modifications improving the 29 from it's earliest days until it's last, the basics were the same, even right down to the last in use as tankers...and our wanting them to have been something more was NOT to be! We regretfully could not make the 29 something against the Mig-15 that it never was intended to be and I think we detract from those crewmen who did their very best with what they had...rather than which they MIGHT have had! I have detested that we were ordered to not shoot unless fired upon...but I detest even more that I know a friend was lost in the last 29 lost in combat over Korea with the survivors and families of those lost, feeling and believing ever since that one gunner was going to get him a Mig... if it KILLED him! There was STILL no B-29 radar controlled turret system in 1952 or 1953!"

The radar historian:

"The 14 came out of Radiation Labs as the "ARO" and may have been intended for the B-29, but never went anywhere! Although they worked satisfactorily against fixed targets (shore installations), end-fire array radar gunnery arrangements really never worked very well against a rapidly moving target."

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Dave, great information! Now I'm wondering when the "no-fire" order was issued. I believe B-29s claimed about 20 or so MiG-15s but were these kills before this order?

I'm also wondering if used, how effective they would of been. Agin I remember Uncle Bill coming up with this "480 mph" number where he said anything much faster than that, the target was difficult to track. Anyway of finding this out?

 

[DaveB.inVa]

From what I gathered from reading Farrells posts is that the no fire order was there when he got there. The reason for doing so wasn't for the reason you imagine though (ie. not trying to spark an international incident, they were doing a good enough job on that already)

As far as I have read the no fire order was started after learning some North Korean tactics soon after night bombing started. Since most of the NK radar was effectively jammed they had to rely on visual means to spot the bomber. One Mig would play as bait while the other played hunter.

Upon spotting the B-29 either through moonlight or perhaps the glowing exhaust stacks of the R-3350, the bait would fly to a point offside the B-29. The hunter, wanting to attempt a pursuit curve, would stay behind and wait for the bright flashes to come from the 0.50's as gunners opened up on the bait. When the gunners opened up the bait would roll away while the hunter would follow a perfect pursuit curve and rake the B-29.

No fire meant not being spotted and that saved lives! At least that was how it was explained the North Koreans teamed up to take on a B-29 and how the B-29 could keep from getting shot down.

It seemed different to me as to why the bait couldnt take care of the job himself, but again I wasn't there.... Farrell was and thats basically his story and I'm positive he's sticking to it!


I don't know anything about the 480 mph limit though. Im sure there is a sweet spot that the gunnery system on the B-29 was most accurate, I just don't know what the upper limit of it was.

Kills by other than tail gunners were made though. On Command Decision the tail gunner claimed 2, the CFC claimed 2 and the right blister gunner claimed 1. So 3/5ths of their kills came from gunners who didn't have as great a targeting window as the tail gunner did... thats pretty good in my book.

I also got a reply from the NASM guys.

"The APQ-14 doesn't appear to have been designed as a fire control radar at all. Radio Research Labs at Harvard had responsibility for homing systems among their other duties in ECM, and they apparently designed the APQ-14 for the "Moth" Self-Guided Missile series to home on 90 to 520MHz radar. I dunno where the idea came from that it was a fire control radar."

The other NASM guy told me to mind my G's and Q's!!

Basically he said for radar designations the G was for a gun laying radar or radar associated with gunnery.

The Q was a broad cover term for "Special Equipment" such as bombing radar.

In other words if the 14 had anything to do with gunnery it would be labeled APG.

Hope all this helps.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Great stuff Dave, I've learned more about this in 4 days than 20 years worth of book research! Too bad my uncle is no longer alive, he might of cleared up some of the confusion on his initial explination. His son (my cousin) lives close to where I work, I probably see him about 4 or 5 times a year, the last time we spoke he said he had other photos and information to share about his dad. I'll post this information as I receive it....

 

[DaveB.inVa]

Heres a good one about radar!

Basically APQ means
A=aircraft
P=radar
Q=special or combination type


http://www.gordon.army.mil/ocos/Museum/an.asp

There is also some decent discussion going on now on the B-29 Yahoo group about the AN/APG-15 being pretty crappy and if someone reported it actually working good then they and their gunnery set were looked on with curiosity!!!

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Heres a good one about radar!

Basically APQ means
A=aircraft
P=radar
Q=special or combination type


http://www.gordon.army.mil/ocos/Museum/an.asp

There is also some decent discussion going on now on the B-29 Yahoo group about the AN/APG-15 being pretty crappy and if someone reported it actually working good then they and their gunnery set were looked on with curiosity!!!

Great!!!!

 

[CharlesBronson]

A picture of the heavy General Electric Computer used to deflection aiming. In most of the Japan raids this equipment was removed an only the tail gun tetaines, even so the losses due enemy action was pretty aceptable.

 

[pbfoot]

the APQ 14 radar was code named Moth and was supposedly to be used to counter a future Japanese search radar which never saw the light of day of further interest while investigating this I found out that japanese radar had little or no height finding ability nor did they have IFF, of interest to Erich would be the fact that the Japanese had the cavity magnetron in 1941 at the time whenthey were inspecting Luftwaffe radar sites and to trade technology they inspected the Wurtzberg system and saw but were not privy to the Freya they were awed by the german technology so they figured the Germans already had the Cavity Magnetron and would not be interested sadly for the Germans

 

[LarryJ]

Sorry to resurrect an old thread. I only recently found this forum.

Regarding the AN/APG-15 on the B-29B. I have found that it really didn't work that well. I have transcribed the monthly histories for the 16th Bomb Group that identified problems with the -15 that prompted a visit to Guam by Dr Vance Holdam, one of the prime developers of the APG-15.

If you have an interest, you can go to 315th Bomb Wing, find the link on the left for New Features, click that and do a google search on the site for APG-15 to read some about the radar set.

 

[JoeB]

Dave, great information! Now I'm wondering when the "no-fire" order was issued. I believe B-29s claimed about 20 or so MiG-15s but were these kills before this order?

B-29's were credited with 27 MiG-15's in Korea. All were credited in daylight, before the B-29's switched over exclusively to night operations in areas with serious MiG risk which happened at the end of October 1951 after some heavy losses; of course the don't shoot first tactic applied to night operations only. Once the switchover was ordered, FEAF bombcom scrambled to equip all B-29's with SHORAN radio navigation gear which previously only a few in each of the three groups had (after 1950: 19th 98th and 307th BG's). With SHORAN, bombers flew in stream (at night) along an arc of equal distance from one SHORAN transmitter, releasing bombs when the bomber reached the correct intersection of that arc and another arc from a second transmitter. CEP's with this form of bombing were eventually reduced to under 1000', with goals of around 400' expressed, not much if any worse than was feasible in daylight.

Analysis of B-29 credits v Soviet accounts of each combat shows that probably only 3-4 MiG's were downed altogether by B-29's. However one certain Soviet loss was in a night attack, not credited to the B-29 in question (though it did fire after being fired on, and claimed a possible kill), in August 1952. I don't know when exactly the tactic was adopted not to fire unless fired upon, perhaps after the first outright losses of B-29's to MiG-15 night fighters in June 1952 (though as covered in a previous thread, La-11's managed to damage a couple of B-29's in December '51). After the first losses to night MiG's a number of improved defensive measures were introduced, including ordering flash hiders for the guns. The most obvious measure, from photo's, was painting the bottoms of all a/c black. The Soviet nightfighters relied on searchlights (in the style of German WWII 'wild boar' tactics) except in very favorable weather and moonlight. The black bottoms substantially increased the difficultly for s/l operators to hold the B-29 in the 'cone', even after searchlight radars told them the relatively narrow arc to scan (FEAF ran trials with B-29's with and without bottom camo v US air defence s/l's over Japan to test this). ECM against the s/l radars, and fighter ground control radars, was another key measure. A difficulty there though was that LeMay of SAC insisted no post-WWII ECM gear be used in Korea, lest it either fall into enemy hands or even just its use revealed its capabilities.

B-29's in Korea had no tail radar. Many were refitted with B-50 type tail turrets in night phase, and as of late 1952 FEAF Bombcom planned to add post-WWII type tail radars, but it was not done before the armistice AFAIK (and most B-29's went to the boneyard in 1954). The B-29's could sometimes detect nightfighters with their APQ-13 bombing radars, although that wasn't the designed purpose of that equipment.

RB-50G electronic recon a/c were operated by the 91st Strategic Recon Sdn based in Japan, over Korea and throughout the Far East, starting in August 1952. The initial detachment consisted 3 a/c, 47-149, 47-151 and 47-161. None were lost in the Korean War proper, but 47-154 was shot down by MiG-15's two days after the Korean armistice near Vladivostok, July 29, 1953. It was speculated that it was in retaliation for the US downing of an Il-12 on the last day of the war that the Soviets claimed was a civilian airliner not over Korea. In general the 91st SRS and predecessor unit weren't only at risk over Korea during the Korean War. The first victory by the Soviet MiG's deployed to Korea was against an RB-29 Nov 9 1950 over NK, and another was downed in January '53 (on a mission over NK, per its original mission report, though the Chinese claimed it fell just inside China and held the surviving crew two years past the Korean armistice). However the unit lost two other RB-29's during the war, outside Korea: 44-61810 July 4 '52 to MiG's and 44-61813 to La-11's that October 7, both near Soviet Far East territory, to fighter units the Soviets didn't consider deployed to Korea.

Sources for all of above (besides the easily Google-able) are FEAF files. Bud Farrell's "No Sweat" is indeed a fine book (and he's a nice guy). Another first hander is "B-29 Navigator" by Ralph Livengood. He flew in daylight period in '51 as opposed to Farrell's experience in night missions in '52, so good balance between those two.

Joe

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Great info Joe - that photo I've posted of my uncle next to his RB-50 might of been one of the ones you mentioned - he said he was on his way to Japan to replace a crew that was shot down, although at that time they didn't know the demise of the previous crew.

 

[fer-de-lance]

Regarding the ECM issue, the Soviets had deployed a P-20 "Token" Vee-beam 3D radar to Antung and it was directing MiG intercepts. A jammer against this radar was available but was not used for the reasons mentioned above.

The Chinese also admitted losing a MiG-15 to B-29 defensive fire. The commander of the 4th Division, 12th Regiment, Zhao, Da-hai, was killed July 9th, 1951. After being frustrated by unsuccessful firing passes against the B-29 due to a high rate of closure, Zhao throttled back to slow down on his final pass and was shot down.

 

[JoeB]

1. Regarding the ECM issue, the Soviets had deployed a P-20 "Token" Vee-beam 3D radar to Antung and it was directing MiG intercepts. A jammer against this radar was available but was not used for the reasons mentioned above.

2. The Chinese also admitted losing a MiG-15 to B-29 defensive fire. The commander of the 4th Division, 12th Regiment, Zhao, Da-hai, was killed July 9th, 1951. After being frustrated by unsuccessful firing passes against the B-29 due to a high rate of closure, Zhao throttled back to slow down on his final pass and was shot down.

1. Yes, the B-29's had to settle for chaff only v S-band radars like P-20.
2. I'm including that in my 3-4. With that exception, all daylight MiG-15attacks on B-29's recorded by the USAF AFAIK correspond to ones recorded by the Soviets. The doubt comes wrt to two incidents, one with F-86 and B-29 credits competing for a MiG loss the Soviets attributed to F-86's so not much chance there, and another night loss the Soviets attributed to bomber return fire (besides the one I mentioned) where I can't find any US encounter that matches it. MiG's were damaged in a number of other cases.

For completeness we might add that NK Yaks downed a lone B-29 July 12, 1950; one pilot (neither US nor NK accounts are clear if there were one or two Yaks) was the leading NK 'ace' Kim Gi Ok, eventually head of the NK AF. B-29's made a number of raw claims against NK props early in the war; none were officially credited nor any reflected in captured NK records but those aren't complete. B-29's also downed a FAA Seafire by mistake in July 1950.

Joe