B-29s over Germany

[Erich]

ok not to stray off-topic which this statement will do, but I need to go back to the Me 262 shoot down thread and start that up again in it's "where-left-off stages" and continue this through the summer. have some interesting bits of information I have acquired over the many months since last posting. I know I know all the books can't be wrong, or can they ??

 

[Soren]

Please do.

 

[syscom3]

The books are incorrect if they prove me wrong

 

[Udet]

Erich is correct when he says we´ve been through this discussion in the past.


It seems like whenever the issue being discussed is the Ta-152, then there´s an issue that will come attached to it, it´s simply unavoidable: the B-29. You know, a direct consequence of one of the allied myths: "the Germans conceived the Ta-152 fearing the B-29 could be deployed in the ETO". Bah!!!!


Soren was not suggesting the Ta-152 and the Me-262 could change the outcome of the war.

Also Soren is aware the Ta-152 did not reach service in significant numbers.

Still, the combat record of the few Ta-152´s which entered service PROVED the lethal worth of the model: of the allied fighters which entered combat against the Ta-152 they simply ended the day biting the ground and the pilot barbecuing his nuts, you name them: P-47s, Tempest and Yaks.

Losses of Ta-152s to enemy fighters: ZERO. NULL. NADA.

I will focus on the Jug: sorry guys, but if the Ta-152 owned the Jug, then the P-51 will pretty much have the kind of end Soren pointed out here.

The P-51 is a sissy by the side of the Jug.

The fact the Ta-152s would be outnumbered in the 10 vs. 1 scenario -and even more- is acknowledged. That they would have been slaughtered? Well, keeping in mind we are standing on a "what if" structure is that I have to answer "I do not know".

There were many many times during 1944 when the Bf 109 G-6/R6s, say, of JG 1 or JG 11, when intercepting B-17s, had of course to tangle with massive numbers of Mustangs. Where they slaughtered? In fact, many many times the majority of those Bf 109s fitted for bomber hunting roles, got away -meaning the majority of them returned to base-, and not just that, they also shot down Mustangs. That they had heavy losses several times? Yes, yes.

Note that the allied creatures depict the G-6/R6 model as either "easy prey to enemy fighters" or "no match" to allied fighters. In other words, in the mind of most allied guys a German pilot flying a 109 fitted with under-wing gondolas was "automatically doomed" if any allied fighter showed up. Crap, and one more of the many urban legends created by the victors.

(The propaganda works have been so persistent, solid and consistent most allied guys in fact see the Mustang as the flawles machine against which any German machine was 100% condemned.)

So, keeping the G-6/R6 precedent in mind, 10 or 14 Ta-152s entering a melee with 190 Mustangs would have been more than capable of leaving the Mustangs behind, destroying some Mustangs in the process. Please do not rush gentlemen, here it goes: That such a fact would have been "useless" for they were not available in signifcant numbers, being therefore uncapable of making a susbtantial contribution? Yes, yes, yes, I know it.

Bf 109 G-6/R6 could tangle with the P-51 B or D, then a Ta-152 will have a much more comfortable time with the Mustang -any version whatsoever-.

Glider:

Soren is correct, when he affirms the Ta-152s have a superior ceiling than that enjoyed by any version of the P-51. You then launched to following comment:

"while the 152 is trying to climb to their favourite fighting altitude, all the other allied planes in the area and escorts are already at altitude and coming down on them like a ton of bricks, while they.."

What makes you think that will be the scenario? What about German radar reporting the oncoming enemy formation to ground control of the Jagdgeschwader?

The Ta-152s were more than capable of reaching superior ceiling to then dive upon the escorts.

I believe the allies find relief in repeating the same things over and over again: "the Me 262 or Ta 152 were useless because they found themselves numerically overwhelmed by the Mustangs or Jugs".

As if trying to avoid the fact the Ta-152 was clearly superior to any other allied fighter deployed in the ETO.

Finally, and this is the better part, many guys predict on the "absolute superiority" of allied planes which did not see service (P-47 N) while trying to put down as much as possible German hardware that reached service and were battle proven (Me 262 or Ta 152).

 

[syscom3]

The Ta-152 was the next in line of the "up-the-ante" development of piston engined fighters that the allies and axis engaged in. As good as it was, it was not a magnitude better than the best allied designs, therefore it would only even the odds or have a slight advantage.

To say the -152 was equal to ten P51's preposterous as we will never know. The -152 was superior to the P38. Against the P47's, perhaps superior. The P51D would have held its own against them at altitude. Maybe not so good against them once the pilots were briefed on its performace.

The -152 had a temporary edge which was going to be equaled by the P47N and P51K (both of which saw service in the PTO). For the Spit, One of the RAF experts can tell us which model of that plane would be its equal.

Udet, when you speak of the Me109's going up to fight, and then all returning back to base unharmed "many times", youre not dealing with the fact that the Luftwaffe ran out of pilots and there could only be one reason for that.... they got shot down.

 

[Jabberwocky]

The RAF would of had a couple of late war prop fighters in to combat the Ta-152, but they weren't in the same class at very high altitude.

Spitfire XXI: A touch slower than the others but probably the best RAF high alt prop. 455-460 mph top speed is a bit down compared to the 460-490 of the P-51H, P-47N and Ta-152. Could do 405-410 mph at 40,000 feet/ 12,000 m.

Late build versions were scheduled to recieve contra-rotating props and the 2,350 hp Griffon 85 engines, which would of perked up performance a little.

Tempest II: Cleaned up Tempest V with a Centarus radial engine. Would of been an outright menace down low for any opposition. 2,500 hp and 442 mph at 15,000 feet. Two squadrons all set for deployment to the CBI theatre, but were delayed and the war finished before they were declared operational.

The Tempest V was absolute pants at high altitude, thanks to its stone age supercharger design. However, I'll upset lot of people here and say that it was the finest low altitude fighter of the ET0, and the Mk II was that much better again.

And then you always have the Meteor III and the Vampire I

Of course, the vast majority of Spitfires are going to be MK IX/XVIs, XIV, Typhoons and Tempest V. The RAF was phasing the XIV in favour of the IX/XVI at the rate of about 2 squadrons a month at the end of the war. A similar story for the Tempest V replacing the Typhoon. The Meteor III was scheduled to go to 3 more RAF squadrons in June and July. Mk XIV production stopped in April with just 947 produced, as the much heavier, longer ranged and slightly slower Mk XVIII replaced it on the production lines. Would of been interesting to see it operate as a fighter-bomber.

The RAF operated a HUGE range of fighters at the end of the war:

Spitfire IX (16 squadrons)
Spitfire XVI (14 squadrons)
Spitfire XIV (14 squadrons)
Spitfire XXI (1 squadron)
Typhoon IB (16 squadrons)
Tempest V (11 squadrons)
Mustang I (1 squadron)
Mustang III (4 squadrons)
Mustang IV (4 squadrons)
Mosquito VI (10 squadrons)
Mosquito XVII (2 squadrons)
Mosquito XIX (2 squadrons)
Mosquito XXX (10 squadrons)
Meteor I (Trials unit, FIU)
Meteor III (2 squadrons)

On the German side, don't forget the Do-335 as a potential bomber destroyer. Very fast, excellent range and heavily armed. The high velocity Mk 103 was probably far more suited to taking out a B-29 than the lower velocity Mk 108.

The other thing the RAF could of done to develop a counter to the TA-152 and other German late war props was put the more powerful Merlin 100 series in a Spitfire VIII airframe. In the great Spitfire tradition of shoehorning a new engine into an old airframe it probably would of done quite well, looking at the Mk V, IX and XIV as guides. A Mk VIII with a +25lbs rated Merlin 70, which is essentially what a Merlin 100 was, did 448mph at 25,000 feeet, so performance would of been good, if not in the rarified atmosphere of those fighters approaching 500mph.

 

[DaveB.inVa]

And remember the B29 had three seperate pressure cabins. A loss of pressurization in one did not impact the others. Plus, unless large chunks of the skin were blown out, then the depressurization was a slow event, and might not even be noticed.

Not quite, it has 2 sorta separate cabins. The front cabin housing the pilot and such was connected by a 30 some inch tunnel, which could not be closed, to the aft cabin where the gunners were. You loose pressurization in one youve lost it in both.

Plus the tail gunners compartment received pressure from the same sources as the front compartments. Both fed from the turbos on engines 2 and 3. With a big enough hole youre not going to get much pressurization in the tail compartment either.

Still though explosive decompression wasnt an issue in combat as standard operating procedure required this portion of flight to be made unpressurized and on oxygen.

 

[CharlesBronson]

If the B-29 was used in the ETO the carnage and industrial demolition of the III Reich Germany would be a lot worst, simple as this.

 

[Marshall_Stack]

Jabberwocky,

How would the Tempest II do at higher altitudes? Also, I was suprised that no one else brought up the DO 335 before you.

 

[syscom3]

The D335 was not operational when the war ended.

The B29 could have been deployed to the ETO as early as late spring 1944.

The Luftwaffe had to combat the B29 with what it had, not what it "might" get to fly.

 

[Glider]

Glider:
Soren is correct, when he affirms the Ta-152s have a superior ceiling than that enjoyed by any version of the P-51. You then launched to following comment:
"while the 152 is trying to climb to their favourite fighting altitude, all the other allied planes in the area and escorts are already at altitude and coming down on them like a ton of bricks, while they.."
What makes you think that will be the scenario? What about German radar reporting the oncoming enemy formation to ground control of the Jagdgeschwader?
The Ta-152s were more than capable of reaching superior ceiling to then dive upon the escorts.
I believe the allies find relief in repeating the same things over and over again: "the Me 262 or Ta 152 were useless because they found themselves numerically overwhelmed by the Mustangs or Jugs".

As if trying to avoid the fact the Ta-152 was clearly superior to any other allied fighter deployed in the ETO.

Finally, and this is the better part, many guys predict on the "absolute superiority" of allied planes which did not see service (P-47 N) while trying to put down as much as possible German hardware that reached service and were battle proven (Me 262 or Ta 152).

I am afraid that you are basing your assumption on the Allies using no nounce when it comes to tactics, i.e. that the only escorts are with the bombers. If I was planning a raid you can be sure that I would have the TA152 bases covered from the moment that the bombers are likely to appear. As the bombers approached there would be escorts well in front of the raid at an altitude to intercept the fighters on the way up.
Getting to altitude would be the major issue and you would be harried every step of the way. Even if the planes did make it to altitude they would have been harried and delayed and as a result ineffective.

You are also assuming that the B29 would be very high, there is no reason why they should be. Over Japan they came down to achieve better bombing concentration, there is no reason why this wouldn't have been done over Germany. The high altitude was for cruising.

By the way no one has addressed the question I have put twice now. If the allied forces were able to catch so many of the Me262's why would they not be able to destroy the slower 152?

Then your 10-14 TA152's get to the bombers and attack. The 190 and 109 sufferred significant losses to the bomber defences, the losses were exagerated significantly by the bomber crews but the German loss reports confirmed that they were still high.
To a bomber there isn't a massive difference in the attacking plane is coming in at 460mph of the TA152 or the 410mph of the FW190A. Can I ask what losses you expect to suffer in your 10-14 planes when attacking say 2-300 B29's.

Your observation that 190 Mustangs would be left behind and totally outclassed is optamistic at best. The TA152 was an exceptional plane without doubt, better than almost anything in the air, quite probably, but 190 vs 10 without loss. The TA152 may well have sufferred no losses to allied aircraft but when did they attack 190 Mustangs?

My understanding was that these were mainly based on the Eastern Front where the Russian airforce was far less sophisticated than the Western Allies.

Final request. I ask you to read my postings and quote anywhere where I said that the Allied planes were as good as the TA152, you will find that I didn't and haven't.

 

[Erich]

typcially the B-29 would of been introduced to replace either the B-17 or B-24 and not be an addition so you can pretty much guess the Luftwaffe is out to lunch with it's present condition of a scant few Ta 152H's and Me 262's.

the ondly differnce HAD there been more Ta 152H's would of been the fighter vs fighter combats were the turning radius of the tank was quite excellent in fact over the Dora and any other Luftw. prop job, besdies the pure out and out speed of the craft and higher altitude margains. Again we are not going to knw as the A/C was never pitted in a high altitude sphere of combat

v/r E ~

 

[Jabberwocky]

Jabberwocky,

How would the Tempest II do at higher altitudes? Also, I was suprised that no one else brought up the DO 335 before you.

I wouldn't like to be fighting in a Tempest variant (except maybe the Mk VI) above about 22,000 feet.

It was done, to be sure, but the drop off in engine power was considerable above 16-18,000 feet. Typhoon and Tempest pilots reported that Bf-109s pilots would attempt to draw them up to higher altitudes where their performance dropped off.

Roland Beaumont got 2 109s and a 190 above 25,000 feet in a Typhoon though, so it wasn't suicide, just more difficult than at medium altitudes.


Most fighters had their peak speeds at 18-25,000 feet. The Tempest had it peak speed at around 14-15,000 feet.

 

[Udet]

Marshall Stack:

"Also, I was suprised that no one else brought up the DO 335 before you."

I did, a long time ago. Responses of course followed paths similar to that you can observe on mr. syscom´s response here:

"The D335 was not operational when the war ended."

Another one of the very interesting anomalies one can detect in some allied guys:

to predict an absolute superiority of allied planes which did not see service in a war theather or -even better- that saw no service of any kind, while trying to minimize and put down German hardware which got proven in combat. (i.e. Ta 152 and Me 262)

Just take another look at Jabberwocky´s happy list: he includes the two "squadrons" of Gloster Meteors...planes that strangely no German pilot ever had the chance to find in combat, planes that were never reported as seen by Flak gunners; planes that oddly scored no victories whatsoever against German planes. Two "squadrons" that were happily -and gladly- kept away from where the fire and blood were.

You know it´s a British Playmate syndrome: real good looking but pretty much useless.

One can continue wondering where all those magnificent Spitfires were located during the last 20 months of the war. One can review the accounts of units and pilots in Reichsverteidigung tasks, you can review real long lists of claims filed by German pilots, say, during the whole 1944 and one thing can be noticed: the bulk of the fight was being carried out by the guys of the 8th and 15th USAAF.

Can someone get me a green tea cup here? Gentlemen, check lists of claims and please when you find a Spitfire, Typhoon or Tempest claimed shot down in combat then please highlight the claim -with bright color-; claims of British planes in the last year of the war are as scarce as common sense is in the present-day world.


Finally, mr. Glider, I do not have the necessary time to give a proper response the last words you just discharged here. Have tea and cookies at hand, for it will be very interesting. Now, i´m off to class.

Cheers!

 

[pbfoot]

The fact the Me262 was produced by the Czechs after ww2 And in service til 57 but was not used by any others while the meteor laboured on long after 57 and was flown by a number of air arms and if your lucky maybe the mexican air force will upgrade to it in the near future and you'll be able to see it up close

 

[syscom3]

Udet, how many Do-335's were operational before the end of the war?

Then answer the following: How many Ta-152's were operational?

Then answer the following. How many P51D's, P47D-25's and P38L's were there?

Then answer this. How many P47N's and P51H's were operation before May 1945?

If were are talking about B29 raids on Germany, it would have taken place after the Normandy Invasion, and Germany was now in a pressed for time schedule. The super fighters had to be deployed in quantity while there was still time.

The only scenario thats feasable is a dozen or so -152's up against several groups of B29's. They would undoubtably take out a few B29's in the process but take loss's in return.

Remember this. The US could make good on the loss of a dozen B29's every day. The Luftwaffe couldnt take the loss of a dozen Ta152's in a week!

Now about those pesky Brit planes? When they were based close to the German border, they could free lance over the bredth of Germany just like the US 9th AF. They could easily have handled anything at low and middle altitudes while the US handled the high altitude stuff.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

The fact the Me262 was produced by the Czechs after ww2 And in service til 57 but was not used by any others while the meteor laboured on long after 57 and was flown by a number of air arms and if your lucky maybe the mexican air force will upgrade to it in the near future and you'll be able to see it up close

The -262 in its 1944/ 45 form was extremely unreliable and although time might have yielded improvements, time ran out for Germany in 1943. The unreliability factor coupled with its limited numbers in retrospect made the -262 no more than a psychological hindrance and a minimal nuance...

I suspect against the B-29 it would of yeilded no better results as against the B-17 or B-24 while delivering double and triple the bomb load....

Udet, how many Do-335's were operational before the end of the war?

Then answer the following: How many Ta-152's were operational?

Then answer the following. How many P51D's, P47D-25's and P38L's were there?

Then answer this. How many P47N's and P51H's were operation before May 1945?

If were are talking about B29 raids on Germany, it would have taken place after the Normandy Invasion, and Germany was now in a pressed for time schedule. The super fighters had to be deployed in quantity while there was still time.

The only scenario thats feasable is a dozen or so -152's up against several groups of B29's. They would undoubtably take out a few B29's in the process but take loss's in return.

Remember this. The US could make good on the loss of a dozen B29's every day. The Luftwaffe couldnt take the loss of a dozen Ta152's in a week!

Now about those pesky Brit planes? When they were based close to the German border, they could free lance over the breath of Germany just like the US 9th AF. They could easily have handled anything at low and middle altitudes while the US handled the high altitude stuff.

Perfect!!!!

 

[syscom3]

Flyboy, I know this question probably belongs in another thread, but when youre at 30,000 ft and above, traveling at 450 mph, isnt the airflow at the propellor tips and over the wings up in the sub-mach range?

Suppose the Ta-152 is at 40,000 feet and going 450 mph, and he dives. Wouldnt he get perislously close to losing it due to sonic airflow buffeting and then would have to throttle back (and slow down)?

 

[Glider]

Finally, mr. Glider, I do not have the necessary time to give a proper response the last words you just discharged here. Have tea and cookies at hand, for it will be very interesting. Now, i´m off to class.

Cheers!

Look forward to it but will leave the cookies behind, trying to lose weight.

 

[Bullockracing]

Wow, great discussion here.

If you consider that by the time the Ta 152 and B-29 were and could have been, respectively, operational in the ETO, the Allies had ground radar stations on the continent, and that allowed the marauding Allied fighter aircraft to catch the 262 on takeoff and landing. If the Ta 152 was such a threat, the same thing would have ended up happening to it as well.

The Ta 152 was a superior plane to the vast majority of all fighter aircraft of the war, but would not be knocking B-29s out of the sky any better than the 190/109 were knocking the B-17/24 down.

Final comment: NUMBERS! The Ta 152's kill ratio is irrelevant. Just because none were shot down by enemy fighters doesn't suggest some mythical invincibility. That means of the miniscule number of sorties flown by the Ta 152, none were wasted in a lopsided furball with 354,456 Mustangs (obvious exaggeration). They just ran away when they couldn't win!