B-29s over Germany

[syscom3]

Wow, great discussion here.

If you consider that by the time the Ta 152 and B-29 were and could have been, respectively, operational in the ETO, the Allies had ground radar stations on the continent, and that allowed the marauding Allied fighter aircraft to catch the 262 on takeoff and landing. If the Ta 152 was such a threat, the same thing would have ended up happening to it as well.

Ive never heard of the allies using ground radar to watch the german fighters take off.

The Ta 152 was a superior plane to the vast majority of all fighter aircraft of the war, but would not be knocking B-29s out of the sky any better than the 190/109 were knocking the B-17/24 down.

read other threads on how effective the 109's and 190's were if they caught the b17's and 24's without fighter escort.

 

[Bullockracing]

Ive never heard of the allies using ground radar to watch the german fighters take off.

The radar system allowed them to track aircraft above abou 500 feet or so, and the Germans knew it. I have an account of a flight of German 190Ds that didn't find their quarry at the designated location, so the just flew up to about 3500 feet and waited for the bounce.

read other threads on how effective the 109's and 190's were if they caught the b17's and 24's without fighter escort.

Roger that, I was merely implying that the ta 152 would not be any better, not that the 109/190s were ineffective. The Ta 152 would for sure not be vaporizing multiple B-29s in one pass...

 

[Soundbreaker Welch?]

The Mig was better than the 262 or am I wrong?

 

[Soren]

It is my opinion that since the Ta-152 is undoubtedly superior to the P-51 and P-47, especially at altitude, a deployment of the B-29 at its intended altitudes of operation would've given the allies a set very difficult problems to overcome, problems which could've otherwise been avoided.

And as Erich pointed out, if the B-29 was to see service in the ETO, it wouldn't just mix up with the B-17/B-24's, it would replace them as the main bomber type. And if this shift happened a big problem would arise - how to protect the bombers ? Cause at the time the Allies had no fighter what so ever capable of effectively protecting the B-29 against the German Ta-152 and Me262 fighters at the altitudes for which the B-29 was intended to operate.

But lets assume the Allies regardless would've gone on to deploy the B-29 at its intended altitude of operation - a couple of squadrons of Ta-152's would've caused havoc in such a situation, without the allies being able to return the favor as altitude would restrict any escort's attempts to engage the Ta-152's which with their massive speed advantage from the dive would be climbing away immediately after their attack, soon to return with even more vengeance in mind. Meanwhile, without having to worry much about escorts, a squadron of Me262's could be set to pound the bombers. The end result - alot of allied lives lost for nothing.

A much wiser choice would've been to keep the B-17/B-24's as the main bombers, as these by contrast could be effectively protected. And luckily for allies the B-29 came into service just abit too late for any goofball to get the bright idea of deploying it in the ETO.

Note - Although I'm convinced the tactic above would prove very effective for the Germans, it was by no means a war-winner, cause as Erich correctly pointed out the amount of Ta-152's and Me262 needed in such case was not only unachievable for the Germans, but also unachievable to keep operational at the rate needed.

If I was planning a raid you can be sure that I would have the TA152 bases covered from the moment that the bombers are likely to appear. As the bombers approached there would be escorts well in front of the raid at an altitude to intercept the fighters on the way up.

But you're forgetting that there would still be Bf-109's and Fw-190's to deal with, and alot of them, and now you're gonna have to deal with them at THEIR preferred altitude... And you can be sure that fighting Bf-109's and Fw-190's at low-mid altitudes would've been a VERY hard job to fulfill for the allied fighters at the time, despite their numerical advantage(Just ask the Russians). Especially the Fw-190 Dora-9 would've proven a true menace if such strategy as yours was to be used. - So there you have yet another negative factor to add to the event that the B-29 was deployed instead of the B-17/B-24's.

Suppose the Ta-152 is at 40,000 feet and going 450 mph, and he dives. Wouldnt he get perislously close to losing it due to sonic airflow buffeting and then would have to throttle back (and slow down)?

I'll answer that: No, atleast not enough so that he wouldn't have a truly massive speed advantage once he reaches the escorts. He'd have to go unbelievably fast for what you're suggesting to ever have chance to occur.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Marshall Stack:

"Also, I was suprised that no one else brought up the DO 335 before you."

I did, a long time ago. Responses of course followed paths similar to that you can observe on mr. syscom´s response here:

"The D335 was not operational when the war ended."

Another one of the very interesting anomalies one can detect in some allied guys:

to predict an absolute superiority of allied planes which did not see service in a war theather or -even better- that saw no service of any kind, while trying to minimize and put down German hardware which got proven in combat. (i.e. Ta 152 and Me 262)

Just take another look at Jabberwocky´s happy list: he includes the two "squadrons" of Gloster Meteors...planes that strangely no German pilot ever had the chance to find in combat, planes that were never reported as seen by Flak gunners; planes that oddly scored no victories whatsoever against German planes. Two "squadrons" that were happily -and gladly- kept away from where the fire and blood were.

You know it´s a British Playmate syndrome: real good looking but pretty much useless.

One can continue wondering where all those magnificent Spitfires were located during the last 20 months of the war. One can review the accounts of units and pilots in Reichsverteidigung tasks, you can review real long lists of claims filed by German pilots, say, during the whole 1944 and one thing can be noticed: the bulk of the fight was being carried out by the guys of the 8th and 15th USAAF.

Can someone get me a green tea cup here? Gentlemen, check lists of claims and please when you find a Spitfire, Typhoon or Tempest claimed shot down in combat then please highlight the claim -with bright color-; claims of British planes in the last year of the war are as scarce as common sense is in the present-day world.


Finally, mr. Glider, I do not have the necessary time to give a proper response the last words you just discharged here. Have tea and cookies at hand, for it will be very interesting. Now, i´m off to class.

Cheers!

The two Gloster Meteor squadrons (616 and 504) were actually credited with over 50 aircraft straffing kills on the ground, 40 or so of which are credited to 616 Sqn. 616 was also credited with around 13 V1 kills (in Mk Is) They attacked MET (motorised enemy transport) and were responsible for CAP over Antwerp for incursions against Me-262 and He-234s.

And the reason that the Gloster squadrons never met enemy planes in combat was two fold.

1) the RAF was concerned about letting their jet technology into the hands of their opponents and so limited thier operational deployment

2) After the end of 1944, when 616 Sqn moved to the Continent, the LuftWaffe was as rare as hens teeth and they had no opportunities to engage, despite flying over 500 sorties. You can't fight an opponent that just isn't there.

RAF claims are for 1,832 destroyed in the air in the final 9 and a bit months of the war. Balanced against this is 2,220 fighter losses to all causes, 1,674 aircrew lost (killed or PoW) and 134 wounded. If you include May and June 1944 this goes up quite a bit more, the RAF being heavily involved in the leadup and fighting over the invasion beaches.

USAAF claims are for 4,445 destroyed in the air in the same period. Balanced against this are 3,613 losses to all causes, and around 3,350 aircrew lost. A small problem here is sorting out 8th AF ground credits from 8th AF aerial credits, which occasionally get mixed.

According to records, the RAF lost about 3:1 to flak vs fighters (mostly Typhoons and Tempests) from July throught to the end of the war, the USAAF about 2:1 to flak vs fighters (mostly P-51s and P-47s).

Both airforces recorded higher fighter losses to German flak than to German fighters for the entire war. US losses were 1,691 to fighters 2,449 to flak and 1,184 to other causes: accidents, mechanical failures, friendly fire, navigational errors, ect,

By the end of 1944 both the RAF and USAAF were disbanding squadrons for reformation in the Far East against Japan, or just standing down. Nos 96 and 132 did so in December, 229 and 603 in January, 168, 257 and 610 in March. Shows how much of a threat the LuftWaffe really was.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Flyboy, I know this question probably belongs in another thread, but when youre at 30,000 ft and above, traveling at 450 mph, isnt the airflow at the propellor tips and over the wings up in the sub-mach range?

Yes - and that's why you see on many charts propeller-driven aircraft starting to loose efficency at there altitudes

Suppose the Ta-152 is at 40,000 feet and going 450 mph, and he dives. Wouldnt he get perislously close to losing it due to sonic airflow buffeting and then would have to throttle back (and slow down)?

Yes and depending to the parameters the buffet may slow him down or start to shake the plane apart. The regime you're describing is exactly what happened to early P-38s....

 

[FLYBOYJ]

The Mig was better than the 262 or am I wrong?

I presume you're talking Mig-15 - it was the "next generation" of jet fighter.

 

[syscom3]

Thanks Flyboy.

I knew there might have been an issue of high speed dives from very high altitudes.

While the Ta-152 was the apex (of its time in the waning months of the war in Europe), it wasnt a magnitude better than the allied fighters flying there.

It was an incremental improvemnt, just like the early model -190's were over the Spitfire.

I'd say the only threat that the B29's had that had no real solution were the rocket firing Me262's. But they came too late and were too few in number.

For Germany, the solution to the B29's was when it was too late and too few were available.

I'd say the B29's in late 1944 and early 1945, while not invincible, were going to be one tough cookie to bring down.

 

[Soren]

Yes and depending to the parameters the buffet may slow him down or start to shake the plane apart. The regime you're describing is exactly what happened to early P-38s....

The Ta-152 would have to go ballistic for something like that to occur FLYBOYJ, at something like in excess of 900 km/h at the very least.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

The Ta-152 would have to go ballistic for something like that to occur FLYBOYJ, at something like in excess of 900 km/h at the very least.

And at a dive from 40,000 feet, theoretically its possible, but I think its wings would come off first...

 

[Soren]

Absolutely possible, but my point is that at 900 km/h the speed advantage enjoyed by the Ta-152 would be enormous compared to its intended victims below.

 

[Erich]

remember the old addage about P-51's loitering around airfields on landing aka Me 262's. The same would of happened to the TA 152 staffeln/gruppen. The Allied presence was just too strong

 

[red admiral]

Absolutely possible, but my point is that at 900 km/h the speed advantage enjoyed by the Ta-152 would be enormous compared to its intended victims below.

Re 2005s over Italy did this quite often. There was minimal buffeting up to 980kph, probably possible for 1000kph+. Attacks on B-17s below. Escorting P-39s had no chance of engaging them.

 

[syscom3]

Re 2005s over Italy did this quite often. There was minimal buffeting up to 980kph, probably possible for 1000kph+. Attacks on B-17s below. Escorting P-39s had no chance of engaging them.

I doubt they had no buffetting at those speeds. 600 mph is high in the sub-mach range to begin with, and the airflow over the wings would have been near sonic.

The airspeed indicators of those years were quite unreliable at speeds high in the mach range. If a pilot said his airspeed indicator said 600 mph in a dive, then it was an inaccurate reading.

 

[red admiral]

http://www.aldini.it/re2005/980km-h1.JPG

Re 2005 flown by Commander de Prato on tests over Guidonia reached 980kph "without problems"

 

[Jank]

The P-47N, as the preferred escort for the B-29, could have accompanied the B-29 to Europe as well. It's increased fuel capacity over the "D" model was via fuel cells that did not have to be used where the needed range was far less. Unused fuel cells are not subject to the problems associated with unused capacity of standard fuel tanks.

The P-47N without all that extra fuel weight would be like a slightly heavier "M" model with larger squared off wings that provided even better roll performance.

At 30-40,000ft, it would be a very fast ship, especially in a dive, with great roll rate and tremendous firepower.

 

[Dogwalker]

The airspeed indicators of those years were quite unreliable at speeds high in the mach range. If a pilot said his airspeed indicator said 600 mph in a dive, then it was an inaccurate reading.

The 980 Km/h dive was obtained in the first day of trhee days of dives performed by Commander de Prato in a single pre-production fighter (MM096105) to test the modifications made to the tail section of the aircraft after aeroelastic problems were reported by the operative pilots in the pre-production aircrafts.
During the last day, he reached 988 Km/h.
These are not speed indicated by the onboard instruments, but corrected by the Reggiane and RA staff. An accurate test was reputed indispensable, since they were testing major modifications of the structure after a problem was reported.
The speed of 980 Km/h in dive was reached by a C.205 in a test too, but the Macchi C.202-205 pilots had to adjust the trimmer first to pass 750 Km/h to mantain the dive controllable. Otherwise, resonance effects will block the trimmer and the dive became incontrollable.
The same problem there was in the first two prototypes of Re.2005, but was fixed with some modifications in the pre-production aircrafts, so, the trimmer of Re.2005 was adjustable at every speed.
De Prato stated that the aircraft was fairly controllable, but that it was better that the pilots didn't try to perform "panic manuvers" at that speed, since thoose could damage the tail section after the modification too.
The C.202 was tested at 930 Km/h (it had to do, since the RA, up to 1942, requires from fighters a controllable dive speed of 1,55 times the maximum levelled speed to be accepted). One of the prototypes lost the tailplane during the tests, so, the tailplane of the production aircrafts was modified to sustain that speed.
Don'know the maximum speed reached by G55, but Gabrielli reported that Kurt Tank itself reached 900+ km/h testing the aircraft (this was an onboard indicated airspeed, since the german designer never said the type of tests he want to perform), and said to him that he was very pleased to notice that there weren't shakings at that speed.
However, 900+ Km/h was probably nothing ecceptional for G55, since the elder G50 was tested at 850 Km/h without problems.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Either way as many people have posted here, the Germans would not have been able to muster eneogh Ta-152s to put into the air to counter a large B-29 force and they been able to the Allied Fighters were swarming over German territory and would have chewed them up just due to there larger advantage in numbers.

 

[Dogwalker]

This is sure.
With the numerical superiority they had at the time the TA 152 came in service, the allies could switch even to the Gladiator as main fighter, and probably the result should be tha same.

 

[Soundbreaker Welch?]

What about our own Shooting Star? Could it have done tolerable as an escort fighter? Perhaps if it hadn't killed two good fighter pilots the allies would have been more enthusiastic about it.