B-29s over Germany

[syscom3]

My idea was to suggest that other than mere crew comfort issues, the pressurization feature, as presented on the "B-29 happy feature list" is completely useless once the enemy came out and sank his teeth into it.
Cheers!

The crew pressurization design came about for very specific reasons that the AAF thought was important. A pressurized design of an airplane that large add's a lot to its complexity and cost, so it wasnt some drunken bird colonel deciding in the officers club that "by god, if I am going to fly at 30,000 ft, then im going to do it in comfort".

The unpressurized B17's and B24's were hard on the crews and the pressurized cabins greatly increased their efficiency.

And remember the B29 had three seperate pressure cabins. A loss of pressurization in one did not impact the others. Plus, unless large chunks of the skin were blown out, then the depressurization was a slow event, and might not even be noticed.

 

[Soren]

In any event it was going to be a turkey shoot for the few Ta-152's and Me-262's intercepting the B-29's, cause at the altitudes at which the B-29 was to be flying the P-51's and P-47's weren't very efficient escort, as they would've been unable to engage the much faster German fighters. The Me262's could be set to pound the bombers while the Ta-152's would be slaughtering the poor lads trying to defend the bombers, and there wasn't much the allies could do about that as they didn't have anything that could effectively counter Me262 and Ta-152 at those altitudes.

So if you ask me, it was wise to use the B-29 over Japan as they did, as the Jap's didn't have anything which could really counter it, but over Germany it would be much wiser to stick with the old B-17 and B-24, as they could be reasonably well protected, the B-29 couldn't.

And syscom3, you talk about a slow depressurization in the event of a hit, something which might be the case if the breach was the size of a rifle projectile, it just so happens that the intercepting German fighters would be firing cannon shells at the darn thing

A single 30mm hit to the cockpit area and I personally wouldn't like to be inside that B-29, cause that would not just mean a truly painful experience physically, it would also mean that I was gonna have to get out of that plane, and QUICK ! Cause that hole will only get larger, and get larger FAST!

Infact a hit by a 30mm "M"Geschoss at anyone of the B-29's three pressurized compartments would be tragic for the crew, cause a split-second depressurization was sure to follow, something which will more than triple the effect of the 30mm round, causing a massive explosion indeed.

 

[syscom3]

In any event it was going to be a turkey shoot for the few Ta-152's and Me-262's intercepting the B-29's, cause at the altitudes at which the B-29 was to be flying the P-51's and P-47's weren't very efficient escort, as they would've been unable to engage the much faster German fighters. The Me262's could be set to pound the bombers while the Ta-152's would be slaughtering the poor lads trying to defend the bombers, and there wasn't much the allies could do about that as they didn't have anything that could effectively counter Me262 and Ta-152 at those altitudes.

The P47's, P38's and P51's were more than capable of handling the Ta-152 at the altitude the B29's were going to fight. I'd even say the late model Spits would have been helping out if they had airfields close enough to the German border. It doesnt matter what the Ta152 performance was at 40,000 ft when it had to come down to 30,000 ft where the bombers are. There would have been no solution to the Me-262's untill the Meteor and P80 was available. The only saving grace was the limited numbers of jets the Germans could have deployed.

So if you ask me, it was wise to use the B-29 over Japan as they did, as the Jap's didn't have anything which could really counter it, but over Germany it would be much wiser to stick with the old B-17 and B-24, as they could be reasonably well protected, the B-29 couldn't.

The B29 was a magnitude better than the B17 and B24. Invulnerable? No. better protected and tougher airframe? yes.

And syscom3, you talk about a slow depressurization in the event of a hit, something which might be the case if the breach was the size of a rifle projectile, it just so happens that the intercepting German fighters would be firing cannon shells at the darn thing

On occasion, the Japanese did manage to pump cannon shells into B29's which created some big holes in it. There were no known B29 loss's due to rapid depressurization by that cause only.

A single 30mm hit to the cockpit area and I personally wouldn't like to be inside that B-29, cause that would not just mean a truly painful experience physically, it would also mean that I was gonna have to get out of that plane, and QUICK ! Cause that hole will only get larger, and get larger FAST!

Infact a hit by a 30mm "M"Geschoss at anyone of the B-29's three pressurized compartments would be tragic for the crew, cause a split-second depressurization was sure to follow, something which will more than triple the effect of the 30mm round, causing a massive explosion indeed.

The B29 had a big airframe, and although the 30mm round would cause some damage, it doesnt mean it would always be fatal. And where did you get that number of "triple the effect"?

 

[Soren]

Oh syscom don't be so ignorant, the P-51 and P-47 were near helpless against the Ta-152 at 30,000ft, not to mention against the Me262. Allied fighter pilots even refused to fly at places where Ta-152's could be expected, whether it be at low or high altitude.

The Ta-152 would hit 732 km/h at 31,000 ft, and could easily out-climb both the P-51 and P-47 at that altitude, and even more easily out-maneuver them. So effectively protecting the B-29 would've proven a near impossibility for the allies, and even if they could've managed to keep the B-29's relatively safe, it would've been at the cost of huge amounts of allied fighters lost.

 

[syscom3]

Oh syscom don't be so ignorant, the P-51 and P-47 were near helpless against the Ta-152 at 30,000ft, not to mention against the Me262.

helpless? heheheheheh. I love dramatics. (although I did say the Me262 was a problem)

Allied fighter pilots even refused to fly at places where Ta-152's could be expected, whether it be at low or high altitude.

Refuse to fight?

The Ta-152 would hit 732 km/h at 31,000 ft, and could easily out-climb both the P-51 and P-47 at that altitude, and even more easily out-maneuver them. So effectively protecting the B-29 would've proven a near impossibility for the allies, and even if they could've managed to keep the B-29's relatively safe, it would've been at the cost of huge amounts of allied fighters lost.

The P51K and P47N were just as fast and maneuverable as the Ta152. Plus the allies had so many fighters available, that the Ta152's would have been pursued from take off to altitude to landing untill they were all gone.

 

[Erich]

gentlemen sorry but you both are making assumptions about the Ta 152H and Allied a/c. The Ta 152H was victorious over the P-47 and Tempest at mid altitudes only and did fly on any combat operations at it's intended height above 35,000 feet, and the P-51 was never encountered except in a Ta 152C experiment performed by Kurt Tank ..... maybe.

without proven documentation of combat between P-38's and P-51's/Ta 152's it is all a amtter of what-ifs. there is fact though that the TA 152H's were never pursued on take off or landing even in the range of the 8th AF Stangs/RAF and the Soviet forward air bases of which Stab./JG 301 mostly encountered

 

[Soren]

Well obviously we're making assumptions, as this whole discussion is based on a "What if" scenario.

My point is just that the Ta-152 was a superior fighter at higher altitudes, cause it clearly was, FW testing of the Ta-152 shows that quite clearly.

 

[Erich]

Soren :

My point although not clear was subtle. the Luftwaffe facing the B-29's in Ta 152's and Me 262's would of beaten to a pulp with P-51 aluminum. there was just an overwhelming presence that was not going to go away ... .

 

[Soren]

How will you beat someone you can't catch Erich ??

 

[Erich]

you are kidding ? 30 Ta's against 500 P-51's. yeah that's fair, right ? you and others have already said the ta is going to have to drop down to 35,000 or less to take on the enemy, because the US pilots are not going to come and try and top 40,000 with an unfair advantage

 

[Glider]

Enough Me262's were caught. What makes you think that the 152 wouldn't be?
I am not saying that one to one the TA152 didn't have an advantage but over Germany one to one was a very very rare luxury for German forces. The bombers would have escorts climbing all over them

 

[Erich]

as I stated. 100 German fighters against a 1000 plus escorts. seems funny doesn't it that we have brought this up several times in the past.

 

[Soren]

you and others have already said the ta is going to have to drop down to 35,000 or less to take on the enemy, because the US pilots are not going to come and try and top 40,000 with an unfair advantage

Exactly !

The Ta-152 had such a high ceiling that would be coming down from above pounding the Allied fighters into submission, and there wasn't much the Allies could do about that, if anything... The Ta-152 would have such a high speed advantage once it reached the allied fighters that it didn't matter how many P-51's there were, cause the Ta-152 would just simply use its excess energy from the dive and climb up to a safe altitude before initiating its next attack, and any P-51's trying to follow would be walking straight into a trap... And this something they could go on with until they had no more fuel left.

Employing the B-29 instead of the B-17/B-24 would be like handing over air-supremacy to the Germans on a silver plate!

You don't fight on the enemy's terms, you fight on your own.

It would be like purposely sending out shermans to fight long range engagements with Tiger's, and we all know who the outcome is going to favor in that situation - the Tiger.

 

[Glider]

You still haven't addressed the question. If the allied forces caught enough Me262's what make you think they wouldn't catch the Ta152.

Also there in an obvious flaw in your argument, i.e. while the 152 is trying to climb to their favourite fighting altitude, all the other allied planes in the area and escorts are already at altitude and coming down on them like a ton of bricks, while they climb.

 

[Erich]

it was tried before from a height advantage and the Allies in P-51's took it to them. the zoom and climb action worked few times in 1945. you are forming a hypothesis which could not work simply because there were not enough Ta 152's to even come close to making 'your' taktics come true. Soren I have followed Ta 152C and H development since 1964 and can assure you truthfully they would of been slaughtered - overwhlemed even if they would of scored 5-6 kills in a days operations. there was just too many P-51's to contend with. And with only stab./JG 301 and 10 pilots flying the Tank it wasn't going to go very far, let alone having their bases and lines of communication blasted off the face of the earth. In essence because of the bases in the east of JG 301 the Soviets were hammering the airfields with artillery while JG 301 in vain tried to get farther to the west knowing full well they would beflying suicide missions towards either front......and this is reality not a fantasy. The big what-if would of been had the Luftwaffe dumped it's regular prop driven Fw 190A's and Bf 109G's/K's and re-equipped totally with the Tank plus had enough time to train it's pilots, then a feasible debate could exist

 

[Soren]

You still haven't addressed the question. If the allied forces caught enough Me262's what make you think they wouldn't catch the Ta152.

The Me262's were caught while trying to land, there's a difference.

Also there in an obvious flaw in your argument, i.e. while the 152 is trying to climb to their favourite fighting altitude, all the other allied planes in the area and escorts are already at altitude and coming down on them like a ton of bricks, while they climb.

Well considering Allied fighters apparently were reluctant to come near airfields patrolled by Ta-152's, I don't visualize such a scenario coming true. (A valid point though)

it was tried before from a height advantage and the Allies in P-51's took it to them. the zoom and climb action worked few times in 1945. you are forming a hypothesis which could not work simply because there were not enough Ta 152's to even come close to making 'your' taktics come true. Soren I have followed Ta 152C and H development since 1964 and can assure you truthfully they would of been slaughtered - overwhlemed even if they would of scored 5-6 kills in a days operations. there was just too many P-51's to contend with. And with only stab./JG 301 and 10 pilots flying the Tank it wasn't going to go very far, let alone having their bases and lines of communication blasted off the face of the earth. In essence because of the bases in the east of JG 301 the Soviets were hammering the airfields with artillery while JG 301 in vain tried to get farther to the west knowing full well they would beflying suicide missions towards either front......and this is reality not a fantasy. The big what-if would of been had the Luftwaffe dumped it's regular prop driven Fw 190A's and Bf 109G's/K's and re-equipped totally with the Tank plus had enough time to train it's pilots, then a feasible debate could exist

Erich I know you have a great deal of expertise in this area, and I certainly don't question your credibility - but as this thread started out as one big "What if", with the war going on and all, I don't see why a shift towards the Ta-152 wouldn't be possible ?

Again I admit this is one big "What if", but so is this thread, so i figured thats what we were discussing - what if's.

 

[Erich]

ah to be there and see it and experience it for ourselves, we would truly understand

yes it is a what-if but how much additional infromation to we put towards the original thread question(s) ?

actually the /Ta 152 never patrolled any airfields, yes the myth is inplace that it protected Me 262 airfields but that is not true. Kommando Nowotny fell aprat even when protected by III./Jg 54 Doras whcih were slaughtered at the hands of overwhleming support of P-51's.

Me 262's were shot down in combat, I have the action reports which I have fully
been interested in since we started the thread over a year ago on Me 262 shootdowns. Again when ther are only 3-4 of you in the melle of 40 Mustangs, who is going to win ?

my assumptions and of course it is a what if, had in late 44 the Ta 152H replaced the others then a shift in the war may have occurred both fighter vs fighter and fighter agasint bomber, the outcome would of been the war in the ETO lasting maybe till Decmber 45/Jaunary 46. The clock had ticked down to far for the Luftwaffe.

 

[syscom3]

I will try to summarize this question about B29's in the ETO.

1) The B29 was not invulnerable

2) The B29 was proven to be one structurally strong bomber for its day

3) Any size flak can bring down any plane, but the B29 was big and strong enough to require direct hits or near miss's.

4) Rapid depressurization was not an issue

5) Centralized fire control was an improvement over the B17/B24 setup.

6) The speed of the B29 complicated intercepts, Plus limited its exposure to flak.

7) The B29 flew at the same heights of the B17

8 ) Taking down a bomber of this size required the latest planes the Luftwaffe had. I see only the FW190-D and Ta-152 as having the performance and firepower combination to do it.

9) The Me-262 was going to be an issue anyway you look at it.

10) The late model allied fighters were good enough to give a run for the money for any German fighter trying to intercept. If the German fighter is kept away from the bombers, then its a victory for the allies.

11) US production capability was massive enough to make good any loss's./

 

[Erich]

number # 11 the most important of the above . . . . unstoppable

 

[Soren]

Well I'm going to trust you then Erich, cause when it comes to history I can only know what I've either read or been told - And knowing you actually write books about this I feel comfortable trusting you on this.

However, even the best can be wrong sometimes, and concerning the Me262 shoot downs, well ofcourse there are always going to be instances where this occurred, but you've got to admit it is not what you hear the most of.

And lastly, I never tried to convince any of you to believe that the Ta-152 was a war-winner, cause it wasn't, nothing the Germans could've possibly produced by then was (Except maybe the A-bomb, but this project was abandoned early by Hitler as he didn't know of its significance), just that if having seen more service than it did I'm sure it would've proven itself a deadly opponent and caused a good amount of grief to the allies. As do I believe that had the Fw-190D-9 been deployed properly, with proper pilots flying most of them, that it too would've caused more grief to the allies than it did.(Which was already significant)

But reality is that eventually Hitler would screw things up, cause he constantly did, and nomatter how good your army is, it isn't worth much without someone good to lead the way.