B-29s over Germany

[PipsPriller]

The Luftwaffe in all it's potent glory couldn't stop, nor even limit, the bombing effect of B-17's and B-24's.

So why do the Luftwaffe hopefulls think that it would do even as well against a bomber travelling 80mph faster than the older models, operating far above their operational ceilings and with a superior fire control system?

 

[syscom3]

this is the issue that still poses a problem for me, you say it's late 1944 for the sake of argument yes? and you say that's based of production figures, well, hang on, wasn't all that production going out to the pacific?

This scenario is for a decision by Gen Arnold and Marshall that the B29 units were going to go to the ETO and not PTO. For whatever reason, the Mariana's were not available at the time needed and someone figured out that the logistics for them in the CBI was impossible to support.

......produce and put pilots in shedloads of -152s and -262s, and they'll be up waiting for the -29's in large numbers, yes some will get through, but many more will get taken down, and suddenly this becomes very expensive for the yanks........

But in reality, the ta-152 and -262's didnt appear in force untill the war was winding down. And that assumes the Luftwaffe had a qualified pilot available for each plane. It could have been done, but that would mean a complete suspension of existing sorties to fight the planes untill these two planes were online.

Remember that towards the end of the war, the Luftwaffe was deploying new pilots with less than a hundred hours of training. I have no reason to believe that any pilot of any nation could effectively handle any high performace fighter with that number of hours without killing himself in an accident or in combat.

now what if we say the practical arrival of the -29 isn't until early '46 perhaps? when a lot more factories are producing large enough numbers for Europe (more would be needed over Europe than the pacifc i think we can agree on that) but again for the americans to think that -17s and -24s weren't sufficient anymore would lead one to assume that the war's going well for jerry again, and if we're talking '46 we're talking about some pretty scary kit coming from the germans, some of which was purpose built to take out the B-29...........

The US had four B29 assembly plants in operation by summer of 1945. If the war was going bad enough, more factories could have been brought online to build even more. remember that the B17's and B24's were being built right up to spring 1945.

Also remember the allies had some tricks up their sleeves too. The P47N, P82 and P51K were going to be able to handle the Ta-152. And thats not counting the P80 and Meteor to handle the -262.

Dont forget that under developement in 1945 was the R4360 engined b29 that was going to be even faster than the -3350 equipped -29's.

sys you say i need to look at the "macro" sence of warfare, i put it to you that you need to look at the macro sence of your sanareo, and realise that other things will change other than the introduction of the B-29, it is not the singular variable in what is in all honesty pure speculation...........

The decsion to base the B29 in the PTO was dictated by political decisions, not war realities. All it took for the B29 to go to the ETO was someone on the JCS to say that the submarine blockade of Japan was going to be just as effective as the B29, or the Mariana's would not be capable of supporting the B29 groups till "later".

In addition, no matter what happens in the air by the time the B29's would have arrived in force, the battle of Normandy and the Russian summer offensives had begun, and the clock was ticking for Germany.

 

[Dac]

The decsion to base the B29 in the PTO was dictated by political decisions, not war realities. All it took for the B29 to go to the ETO was someone on the JCS to say that the submarine blockade of Japan was going to be just as effective as the B29, or the Mariana's would not be capable of supporting the B29 groups till "later".

It was also political decisions on the part of the German high command(Hitler) that limited the deployment of the Me 262 and other inteceptors. As delcyros points out, large numbers of B-29s being sent to the ETO would have provoked a response from the Germans. Instead of wasting Me 262s in the fighter-bomber role perhaps all the production would have gone into air defence. It's also probable that more effective interceptors liked the Ta 152 would have recieved a higher priority.

I'm not arguing that the Luftwaffe would have been able to stop the Allied air offencive or somehow turned the tide of the war. I'm just saying that the air over Germany was a dangerous place for Allied aircraft till the end of the war and that would have applied to the B-29 too.

 

[syscom3]

If the carnage and damage the existing B17's. -24's and Lancs couldnt motivate the German High Command to switch over to the Me-262 in a pure fighter role, then I seriously doubt the introduction of B29's would change their way of thinking.

One thing to remember is you cant hurry technology. If the Ta-152's engines were not ready for combat, then the plane isnt ready to fly.

 

[Erich]

sorry guys this thread is going no-where like all what-ifs. if the B-29 would of been introduced earlier in the war the Luftwaffe plain and simple would of rushed the Ta 152H program sooner or another higher altitude alternative. Nothing was going to take on the Ta 152H in late war for the Allies don;t care if it was a P-51K which was ins erivce or a P-47N, there were newer Ta 152 varinats ready to be let loose but the war came to quickly to a close. As I said this is all nonsense now so lets close this ..............

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I agree - this is a BIG "what if."

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Syscom, Lanc is right, you are not looking at all the angles of your " Great Big What If".

You also assume alot as well and discredit others assuming. Why is that? Are your assumptions better than others?

You say the P-51K would be able to handle the Ta-152? Are you sure about that? Did a P-51K ever see combat with a Ta-152? Nope.

You say the P-80 would be able to handle the Me-262? Are you sure about that? Did the P-80 ever see combat at all in WW2? Nope.

You say the Meteor could handle the Me-262? Are you sure about that? Did the Meteor ever see air to air combat in WW2? Nope and besides the Me-262 was proven to be a better aircraft than the Meteor anyhow.

You talk about all this hypothetical stuff, Besides the fact that I agree with Lanc up here, if the B-29s had to be forced into Europe in 1944 then the Ta-183 and the P.1011 would have been hurried up aswell, and they would have been more than a match for the allied fighters (as proven by US tests with the P.1011) and the B-29 aswell.

The Germans were not really lacking all that many experienced pilots in 1944, it was not until late 1944 that they experience level dropped.

Basically what I am saying here syscom is if you are going to throw out your What ifs like you do, then you are going to have to look at all the variables aswell and not dismiss other peoples like you do.

 

[syscom3]

You also assume alot as well and discredit others assuming. Why is that? Are your assumptions better than others?

Of course they are

You say the P-51K would be able to handle the Ta-152? Are you sure about that? Did a P-51K ever see combat with a Ta-152? Nope.

Conversely, a -152 never saw combat with a -51K. As good as the -152 was, it was not a magnitude better in performance than the newest versions of the allied fighters that would have met it.

You say the P-80 would be able to handle the Me-262? Are you sure about that? Did the P-80 ever see combat at all in WW2? Nope.

P80 had engines that were a lot better, plus it had far longer range. Was it as fast as the -262? Nope. But the relative speeds were enough that the P80 could stay in a tail chase on the -262, or stay out of its way and just wait untill it had to land and then shoot it down.

You say the Meteor could handle the Me-262? Are you sure about that? Did the Meteor ever see air to air combat in WW2? Nope and besides the Me-262 was proven to be a better aircraft than the Meteor anyhow.

Meteor had similar engines to the P80.

You talk about all this hypothetical stuff, Besides the fact that I agree with Lanc up here, if the B-29s had to be forced into Europe in 1944 then the Ta-183 and the P.1011 would have been hurried up aswell, and they would have been more than a match for the allied fighters (as proven by US tests with the P.1011) and the B-29 aswell.

The -183 and .1011 wouldnt have been deployed any sooner than they were. Germany had only so many resources to go around and it could not produce production aircraft with no bugs in a "zero" time frame. As I said, if the B17, B24 and Lanc were not enough motivation for them, then the B29 was not going to incite them to speed things up.

The Germans were not really lacking all that many experienced pilots in 1944, it was not until late 1944 that they experience level dropped.

I agree. The B29's would really be in force untill late 1944 anyway.

Basically what I am saying here syscom is if you are going to throw out your What ifs like you do, then you are going to have to look at all the variables aswell and not dismiss other peoples like you do.

I looked at the other variables and they are to much in left field, and not enough what could have been done immediatly.

 

[Marshall_Stack]

What is the P.1011? I couldn't find anything on Google.

 

[Soren]

For christ sake syscom3

 

[Sal Monella]

"What is the P.1011? I couldn't find anything on Google."

It's nice to see that I wasn't the only one.

 

[Erich]

another thought even with the B-29 airborne the ground to air rocket program would of been pushed further. there are at least a half dozen incidences of them firing on B-17 formations during 1945, primarily for observation purposes.

the Ta 152H program would of been elevated in the extrememe as it would of taken on all Allied escort fighters..........but again this is a ALL encompassing what-if

 

[delcyros]

Meteor and P-80´s do have different powerplants, Syscom. Altough I think You mean the general specification as a "radial" engine.
Meteor III: Dervent-I or II (907 Kp, depended on production model)
Meteor-IV: Dervent V (1456 Kp) -model late 1945
P-80: GE J 33 (1746 Kp) -model late 1945
What´s the issue with the reliability? As we see, the contemporary radial jet powerplants (Dervent I, Dh-Ghost, Welland) are not decisively better in thrust output and also were unreliable (there were problems to restart Wellands in flight), altough not to such a high degree as were the Jumo-004B´s.
Radial engines are not superior over axial ones per se. The axial Jumo-004A had excellent lifetime, overrew abilities (from 840 Kp at 100% to 1.000 Kp during bench tests) but had too much scarce alloys. This was what made the Jumo-004B that inferior in reliability, not the axial layout.
In late 1945 almost all the unreliable Jumo-004B would have been replaced by the Jumo-004D (004B production was to fade out in may, 004D serial production started in mid march 45) or Jumo-004E. Both engines featured a new, more heat resistant alloy for the turbine section, which increased the average lifetime to 50+ hrs(thrust ratio was slightly increased to 930, resp. 1200 Kp, testbenched for 200 hrs sustained runs with and without reheat). Twin jet needles and a cyclic fuel compressor prevented much of the flameout threads common for early jet engines.
BMW-003A engines with 800 Kp thrust were more reliable and had a 200 hrs. average lifetime. By early 1945 serial production for BMW-003E started for the He-162. This variant could be enforced to 923 Kp thrust power rating for brief periods (excessive use of this overrew capability would significantly reduce the average lifetime). Mass production of the BMW-003D started in april 1945, this variant would have auto shut off and auto settings, greatly improving the specific fuel consumption and thrust rating (1100Kp).
For the late 45 timeframe we must exclude the unreliability as a prime factor for german jet engines.
My personal opinion nethertheless agrees on the latest british and US developments (RR Nene and GE J33) most. They were better powerplants than the proposed HeS011.
However, I wouldn´t think that the situation would allow for a late 45 timeframe. Even with B-29, the war would end historically in early may 45.
There is nothing the B-29 could do to accelerate the breakdown of Nazi Germany, ground forces were needed to achieve victory. Germany was already badly bombed in mid 44.

 

[red admiral]

My personal opinion nethertheless agrees on the latest british and US developments (RR Nene and GE J33) most. They were better powerplants than the proposed HeS011.

Whittle LR1 turbofan with 10 axial and 1 centrifugal stage, bypass ratio of 3 and 2700kg thrust in 1944.

More useful would be the Turbofan developed in 1943 or so for MetroVick and Whittle /700 that increased thrust by 60% and reduced fuel consumption by 20%. This was a simple device that could be simply attached to the turbine unit. The UDF tested produced even more thrust for less weight. Neither was implemented because it was too easy for an example to end up in German hands.

 

[delcyros]

The first jet engine with turbofan was testbenched in 1941. It was the DB-006 ZTL (ZTL means "Zweistromturbinenluftstrahltriebwerk"-dual air flow jet engine) with a thrust rating of 1.150 Kp at 100% and 1350 Kp enforced. The engine was considered as too difficult for mass production (17 stages axial, 1 stage turbine) and the project was stopped later. DB managed to improve the concept for a really large, 3 stage fan, 10 stage axial and 3 stage turbine engine. (thrust output was estimated in excess of 7000 Kp. -I do have my doubts on such numbers-) The DB-016 featured such improvements as 90% thrust revectoring for rapid decelleration. At wars end, Daimler Benz worked small part fabrication of the first two prototypes.
Beside of DB, Jumo and BMW as well as Heinkel all had ZTL jet engine concepts or test engines.
The Whittle metrovic engine with diagonal compressor (same layout as HeS002, and HeS008-HeS011 but much more complicated) didn´t fullfilled their specifications. This 2.700 Kp thrust output was never achieved on the testbench.
The Nene was the best jet engine tested in ww2, excellent thrust rating, lightweighted, low specific fuel consumption. Huge diamter but otherwise excellent.

 

[syscom3]

The ground to air rockets were quite an interesting developement. I think it would have been of limited use though as it would have been prone to jamming. If it was one thing the allies had an abundance of in 1945 was lots and lots of airframes dedicated to specific tasks.

 

[Erich]

jamming is rather doubtful as case in point the Allies did not even know they existed and thought the strange looking puffs with bright light in the middle were some sort of flak. biggest problem was the guidance/radio control systems from ground to air which were a bit infantile but were getting worked out as the war wound down quickly. Berlin, Hamburg, Vienna and the major larger cities of the Ruhr were to be centers for rocket flak.

this is all another story along with radio and wire guided fighter to bomber rockets

 

[Erich]

I'll just quickly throw this in as it was fired in anger several times

Rhine-daughter and later multi-stage developments, guess they thought the moon was controlled by the Allies

 

[Gnomey]

That look interesting Erich, I have heard of the Wasserfall anti-aircraft rocket but that is it. Do you have anymore information?

 

[Erich]

I have 10 tons of info on the German ground to air rockets much of it collected since the 1960's and most of it unseen materails as it was going to be used for a booklet I was pondering for many many years. Funny how the Soviets captured several Wasserfalls and what was left of the ancient now V-1 and V-2 systems in NE Germany and put together rather dreadful rocket programs

but I digress. A Rheintochter going through test devlopments. As to the written myth the project was not scrubbed out but continued for a high altitiude small but extrmemely powerful surface to air missile system, the wasserfall and several others were too big and guidanace control systems were faulty. Ideas were ill conceived as there were just too many missile designs on the work table. What if could of been devastating to US and even Soviet midrange bombers had the missiles been enplace in prtective and well-concealed camo'd bunkers and that was the idea to have them placed on the outskirts of the major cities. trials were also set on using a multi fired rocket systme for Bomber destroying like the ground unit Nebelwerfer