Bartels Claims (and others) Pt.2

[drgondog]

I don't know how many times I have watched a 109 in a helpless flat spin in the gun camera of the US fighter getting lit up as a pretty easy target. A slit ess doesn't result in a claim.

Here is one of my personal favorites as a mistake by a 109 pilot that didn't believe a 51 could stay with him when splitt ess near the deck. This was my father's number five in the air. Does make one re-consider what a 109 vs 51 could actually do versus what was claimed as impossible? Either way.

 

[Ratsel]

by the time the p-51 pilots dropped his flaps and attemped to follow the already damaged (trailing smoke) 109 already hit the ground. theres a good interview with 3 seasoned p-51 pilots explaining how one Me109 pilot made them all look like rookies at the same time. until the fourth p-51 pilot showed up. theres still a debate ( depending which source you believe ) that either Mendl was got by the fourth p-51 pilot who joined the fight or flak. I think a flak shot finished him off. So does Theo Nau.

thanks for the information.

 

[Kryten]

I often think the most important factor when making violent defensive turns is not whether the particular aircraft can do it, but can the pilot?
we all have different tolerances to G, not to mention how physically strong we are to manipulate the flight controlls in those circumstances!

 

[Kryten]

theres still a debate ( depending which source you believe ) that either Mendl was got by the fourth p-51 pilot who joined the fight or flak. I think a flak shot finished him off. So does Theo Nau.

and why would you think that?, do you have any evidence or new information?

 

[Ratsel]

A discussion at length with Heir Nau. About his experiances at Y-29 on 1.1.45. he's 86 but his mind is still as sharp as a razor blade. Also a coversation with Uwe Benkel, noted historian and aircraft recovery expert. BTW, Uwe also did a second recovery excavation of Heinrich Bartels G-10. Horrido.

 

[Erich]

let's all face reality JG 11 claimed 11 kills which is obviously incorrect and the end result is that they were ripped apart by the 486th sq with the rest of the 352nd fg watching and confirming that carnage at Y-29th the P-47 group the 366th fg put on a good show as well. A sad day for every LW unit taking part in this fools operation.

 

[Ratsel]

I'll check my Bodenplatte book on that about JG 11. Putz already did most of the homework. Its an excellent book. However you are correct, JG 11 got ripped up pretty bad.

 

[Erich]

have the same book Ratsel, John is a great guy to correspond with also I am a friend of the 352nd fg and have been for many a year, have some interesting notes from that insane operation by them Alden Rigby finished up on that op to become an ace. Richard Frazn from the either side only remembers his downing of the P-47 but that is not much as we corresponded primarily about his Fw days in Sturmstaffel 1.

 

[drgondog]

Total fighter losses all in for 1942 through VE Day, 1945 was about 2300.

 

[drgondog]

by the time the p-51 pilots dropped his flaps and attemped to follow the already damaged (trailing smoke) 109 already hit the ground. .

Could you draw my attention to the part where the 109 hit the ground before dad dropped his flaps and followed him in the split Ess?

 

[Ratsel]

I can't. I thought I wrote something else. My humble appologies to You and your Dad.

have the same book Ratsel, John is a great guy to correspond with also I am a friend of the 352nd fg and have been for many a year, have some interesting notes from that insane operation by them Alden Rigby finished up on that op to become an ace. Richard Frazn from the either side only remembers his downing of the P-47 but that is not much as we corresponded primarily about his Fw days in Sturmstaffel 1.

Havn't had the pleasure of speaking to him. Hope to do so one day.

 

[Erich]

great guy so is Oskar Bösch and Richard Müller, not sure if the latter is still alive but Oskar is still flying gliders out of Canada............. my PC has got probs with this heat....am off for a bit

 

[drgondog]

I can't. I thought I wrote something else. My humble appologies to You and your Dad.

Lol - that is not necessary

Haven't had the pleasure of speaking to him. Hope to do so one day.

You will - but not on this plane of existence.. he was a character. He always tried dto give his awards to his wing man who always had trouble staying on his wing. Someday, read Ace of the Eighth by Norman "Bud" Fortier to get a perspective of what his peers thought of him. He became close friends with a LW pilot he whacked on 9/11 as well as Steinhoff, Hartmann, Rall, Galland and Krupinski

 

[Ratsel]

thanks for the information.

Looking over the tally sheet for OB 1.1.45 The figures clearly indicate that the Allied AAA had been the real menace for the German attack force. Almost half of the total losses can be directly attributed to Allied AAA. No less than 75 per cent of all losses were caused either by Allied AAA or fighters.

A fight that should have never taken place.... or at least delayed until better organised.


Jagdgeschwader 11
Fw 190's suffered the most. Losing 20 aircraft. Other losses were two Me109K-4's, and six Me109G-14/AS's.

out of 28 a/c

~ 8 knocked down by AAA (29%) - four Me109's
~ 14 by fighters (50%) two Me109
~ 1 hit trees (1%) - one Me109
~ 5 unknown (19%) - one Me109

All Units:

Based on 292 individual losses listed the following statistical analysis can be made:

47% by Allied AAA
23% by Allied fighters
5% by German Flak
5% in accidents
5% by either Allied AAA or fighters
3% from technical failures
1% from fuel starvation
11% to unknown causes

Based on these figures a few important conclusions can be drawn. Firstly, the myth that one third or even two-thirds of the German losses were caused by 'friendly' Flak can now be eliminated. Evidence exists that 15 fighters were indeed shot down by their own Flak. Also, two Ju 88 Lotsen were shot down by German Flak. Even if we add half of the losses of which the cause is unknown, this would be no more than approximately 30-35 aircraft shot down by 'friendly' Flak. Of the 292 losses listed some 221 are attributed to Allied AAA. These numbers correspond well with the 2nd TAF headquarters report, which divided the Allied claims as follows:

Aerial claims 2nd TAF 57
Aerial claims 9th AF 40
Total 97
AAA claims HM ships Scheidt 2
AAA claims British Army 44
AAA claims RAF Regiments 43
AAA claims US 9th Army 40
Total 129

 

[drgondog]

About 4500-5000 a/c were lost in the PTO by US forces, from memory, combat losses that is....not sure about non-op losses

scraping the barrel now, but from memory fighter losses in the ETO in 1944 was about 1500 from all causes....thats about 700 lost to combat

Total 8th AF FC Operations 1942-VE Day, 1945
For 8th AF FC - 5182 aircraft destroyed in air, (64% P-51, 30% P-47, 6% P-38, .2% Spit Vb), 4106 aircraft destroyed on the ground (78% P-51, 18% P-47, 4% P-38, 0% Spit Vb))

Losses for 8th AF FC - 640 air to air, (50% P-51, 33% P-47, 16% P-38, 3% Spit V), Lost 888 Flak/Strafing, (64% P-51, 23% P-47, 12% P-38, 1% zero Spit Vb), Lost 784 All Other Ops including Accidents (62% P-51, 25% P-47, 11% P-38, 1% Spit Vb)

Air to air Ratios (10:1 P-51, 7:1 P-47, 2.8:1)
Ground credits/Strafing-flak losses Ratios (5.6:1 P-51, 3.7:1 P-47, 1.5:1 P-38, 0 to 11 for Spit)

9288 German aircraft destroyed to 2312 8th AF FC losses total - all causes = 4:1. (4.7:1 P-51, 3.7:1 P-47, 1.5:1 P-38, 0.6:1 Spit Vb)

 

[parsifal]

Thanks DG, so the 1500 figure is actually all combat related, there were an additional 700 or so to accidents and the like.
And my memory was wrong, your saying that the losses are for thje duration, not just 1944.

Still kind of puts all this discussion into a bit of perspective .

Do you have confirmation figures on the losses in 44, and what about other types principally the heavy bombers

 

[Erich]

think the LW losses of 9288 can be quite speculative as we have talked the what if, descension in cloud smoking not able to totally confirm even with wingman or another quad mate at hand. US bomber gunners receiving individual tallies for the shooting down or damaged as confirmed claimed of the same LW S/E or T/E. the real get go and it is so sad we do not know the actual LW losses by wars end for operational flights. they are lost during late 44 till wars end.

 

[drgondog]

think the LW losses of 9288 can be quite speculative as we have talked the what if, descension in cloud smoking not able to totally confirm even with wingman or another quad mate at hand. US bomber gunners receiving individual tallies for the shooting down or damaged as confirmed claimed of the same LW S/E or T/E. the real get go and it is so sad we do not know the actual LW losses by wars end for operational flights. they are lost during late 44 till wars end.

all true

 

[Ratsel]

the losses in 1945 seem fairly complete.. at least from what I've seen. no clue why.. perhaps the Luftwaffe priorities shifted to suvivability after Bodenplatte?

 

[Erich]

ah not sure where you are getting that idea, as said before the claims/loss records of the LW day and night units were lost in 1945 in bombings near and on Berlin