Bartels Claims (and others) Pt.2

Discussion in 'Aviation' started by Ratsel, Sep 6, 2011.

  1. Ratsel

    Ratsel Banned

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    The crews of IV./JG 27 participated in two very successful operations on 15.11.43 when they shot down 14 Lightnings and one Mitchell bomber with no losses of their own aircraft. Hptm.Kirschner and Fw.Bartels both returned with four kill.


    On 17.11.43 the German fighters flew in defence of Kalamaki airfield under attack by a large formation of Mitchells and their P-38 escort. The Luftwaffe pilots brought down four B-25s and four P-38s. Most of the kills again went to the 'killer duo': Hptm.Kirschner shot down two enemy aircraft and Fw.Bartels three.


    A little background on confirmation of Luftwaffe claims:

    The major difference between the German and Western Allies' method of scoring victories was that the Germans were not allowed to share a victory. Their cardinal rule was: "One pilot-one kill." In contrast Allied pilots were allowed to share victories. If two pilots fired at an enemy and it went down, each Allied pilot received one-half of the kill. Carried to absurdity, it is conceivable that an Allied pilot could become an ace with ten or more half-victories, never scoring any victories of his own! The Luftwaffe system of awarding victories was impartial, inflexible, and far less prone to error than the American or British method. That is not to say that errors were not made, history shows that both sides during the "Battle of Britain" tended to overclaim victories on a scale of 2:1.

    The German's recorded victories in one of three categories: Abschuss (Destroyed), Herausschuss (Seperation), and endgueltige Vernichtung (Final Destruction.) These three categories were used for assessing "points" towards awards. Only an enemy aircraft in an Abschuss was counted towards the pilot's overall victory tally. A pilot that brought down and enemy plane with a Endgueltige Vernichtung or Final Destruction of a damaged aircraft was not awarded credit for the "kill", however he did earn "points" for the aircraft's destruction.

    Following the policy of "one pilot-one kill", the investigating authorities would determine if the claiming pilot was solely responsible for the destruction of the enemy plane. Every Abschuss had to be observed by a witness: either a ground observer or the encounter, the pilot's wingman, or a Staffelmate. Witnesses were necessary unless the victor's aircraft had been fitted with a gun-camera and the destruction of the plane or the vanquished pilot's bailout had been recorded on film, if the wreckage of the downed pilot or other crew crew member had been captured by German forces. In effect: No witness or tangible evidence - no victory.

    Every Abschuss had to be confirmed by the Oberbefehlshaber der Luftwaffe or Commander in Chief of the Air Force. Jagdwaffe pilots were at all times required to note their geographical position as well as the type and number of the aircraft in enemy formations engaged. Naturally, the victor was required to log the exact time of a kill, while he maneuvered for a tactical advantage over the remaining enemy aircraft! In addition, he had to observe other actions in the air in order to be able to witness victories by his Staffelmates. Upon landing, the claimant prepared his Abschuss report for review by the immediate supervisory officer, who either endorsed or rejected the claim. If endorsed, the pilot's report to the Geschwaderstab, or Wing Staff, which, in turn, filed its report and sent both to the Reichsluftfahrtministerium (RLM), or Air Ministry. After checking all the papers that were submitted, the official confirmation was prepared and sent to the unit. This very long bureaucratic proceedure sometimes took as long as a year! During 1944, another authority was created: the Abschusskommission, which received all reports on crashed aircraft remains found by search units. This commission checked conflicting claims between antiaircraft batteries and fighter pilots, and awarded credit for the victory to one claimant or the other. This system ensured that no more credits would be awarded than wrecks found.

    The German system of confirming aerial victories was very effective in keeping human errors and weknesses within limits. Despite this, the Oberkommando der Luftwaffe, or Luftwaffe High Command, considered the large victory totals during the early days of the Russian campaign as incredulous. On many occasions, they accused the Jagdgeschwader Kommodores of exaggerating the victory scores. In effect Goering was calling the frontline pilots liars. This was one of the grievances that brought about the Mutiny of the Fighters, or the Kommodores' Revolt Conference, in Berlin during January, 1945.

    When a German fighter pilot scored a victory, he would call "Horrido" on the radio. This distinctive announcement of victory alerted his fellow pilots to watch for a crash or a flamer, as well as notify ground stations, which helped to confirm many victories.


    So, in my opinion on 15.1143 17.11.43, there were serious errors in Allied reports of damaged/destroyed aircraft. How to prove those errors 65 years later is another matter all together.
     
  2. Erich

    Erich the old Sage
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    not sure you want to repeat this Ratsel. confirmation has been given you and IV./Jg 27 overclaimed it is certain. the cry of Horrido was done away with early war. as said by me the confirmation process was null and void by October of 1944 so what you have expressed is an overall generalization in early war theaters.
     
  3. Ratsel

    Ratsel Banned

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    Sept/44 actually. Just thought it would be interesting to continue the coversation on this subject (not just on Bartels). So my appologies if this is a pointless thread. please remove if need-be.
     
  4. Erich

    Erich the old Sage
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    the Fat mans lurid comments in September of 44 about the LW pilots being cowards stems from the fact he was pushed over the edge by the ugly Austrian. this was in hopes to get the Sturmgruppen Fw 190A-8's to get even closer with the bombers and fighters and take them out even upon rammings. In essence the 3 Sturmgruppen units said F*** Off to the hierarchy.

    case closed
     
  5. Milosh

    Milosh Well-Known Member

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    from Tony Woods list for those that don't have it:

    15. November 1943
    Lw.Kdo. Süd-Ost: Jafü Greichenland

    15.11.43 Hptm. Joachim Kirschner: 182 Stab IV./JG 27 Mitchell  S. Labadeia: 5.500 m. 11.24 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.5
    15.11.43 Hptm. Joachim Kirschner: 183 Stab IV./JG 27 P-38  W. Arachoba: 6.000 m. 11.28 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.6
    15.11.43 Fw. Ernst Hackl: 2 12./JG 27 P-38  südlich Aspra Spitia 11.30 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.9
    15.11.43 Hptm. Joachim Kirschner: 184 Stab IV./JG 27 P-38  W. Arachoba: 4.800 m. 11.32 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.7
    15.11.43 Fw. Ernst Hackl: 3 12./JG 27 P-38  S. Amfissa: 4.500 m. 11.35 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.10
    15.11.43 Fw. Heinrich Bartels: 67 11./JG 27 P-38  S.E. Kalamáki: 4.000 m. 13.10 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.5
    15.11.43 Fw. Heinrich Bartels: 68 11./JG 27 P-38  S.E. Kalamáki: 4.000 m. 13.10 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr. -
    15.11.43 Ofw. Horst Ziller: 1 10./JG 27 P-38  S.E. Kalamáki: 3.000 m. 13.10 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.5
    15.11.43 Fw. Heinrich Bartels: 69 11./JG 27 P-38  S.E. Kalamáki: 3.500 m. 13.11 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.6
    15.11.43 Fw. Heinrich Bartels: 70 11./JG 27 P-38  S.E. Kalamáki: 3.500 m. 13.12 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.7
    15.11.43 Fw. Ernst Hackl: 4 12./JG 27 P-38  Insel Aegina: 4.000 m. 13.15 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.11
    15.11.43 Uffz. Günther Kühn: 2 11./JG 27 P-38  20 km. S.E. Kalamáki: 3.500 m. 13.14 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.8
    15.11.43 Ltn. Gerd Suwelack: 3 10./JG 27 P-38  S.W. Insel Aegina: 4.000 m. 13.16 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.9
    15.11.43 Hptm. Joachim Kirschner: 185 Stab IV./JG 27 P-38  E. Insel Aegina: 4.000 m. 13.17 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.5

    Supplemental Caims from Sources:
    15.11.43 Fw. Ernst Hackl: 3 12./JG 27 P-38  Thebes 13.15 Reference: JG 27 Lists f. 467

    17. November 1943
    Lw.Kdo. Süd-Ost: Jafü Greichenland

    17.11.43 Hptm. Joachim Kirschner: 187 Stab IV./JG 27 P-38  S.W. Piraeus: 4.000 m. 12.48 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr. -
    17.11.43 Ltn. Wolfgang Hohls: 1 11./JG 27 B-25  W. Krapias: 4.000 m. 12.49 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr. -
    17.11.43 Fw. Heinrich Bartels: 71 11./JG 27 B-25  N.E. Kalamáki: 4.000 m. 12.50 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr. -
    17.11.43 Fw. Heinrich Bartels: 72 11./JG 27 B-25  N.E. Kalamáki: 4.000 m. 12.52 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr. -
    17.11.43 Fw. Heinrich Bartels: 73 11./JG 27 P-38  E. Marathon: 2.000 m. 12.58 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr. -
    17.11.43 Uffz. Günther Kühn: 3 11./JG 27 P-38  S.E. Kalamáki: 1.500 m. 13.00 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr. -
    17.11.43 Hptm. Joachim Kirschner: 188 Stab IV./JG 27 B-25  W. Insel Disporia: 3.900 m. 13.03 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr. -
    17.11.43 Ltn. Wolfgang Hohls: 2 11./JG 27 P-38  N.E. Kalamáki: 4.600 m. 12.48 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr. -

    Supplemental Claims from Sources:
    17.11.43 Ltn. Hans-Gunnar Culemann: 2 Stab III./JG 27 B-25  südlich Athen 12.50 Reference: JG 27 Lists f. 347

    Terms. Date, Name, Unit and Type normal. Locations in various forms: a. geographical position. b. map reference. c. Luftwaffe Gradnetz [Fighter-Grid]: e.g. 05 Ost S/GU-5 is Hannover City Centre. Time in German Time: either CET or CET+1. Film Reference marks the BA-MA film identification.
    Anerk: = Anerkennung [Acknowledgement] or Confirmation certificate number.
    VNE = Vernichtung nicht erwiesen = Destruction not yet proven.
    ASM = Anerkennung später moglich = Confirmation to be later decided.
    Abgelehnt = Denied.
    i.Zus.Arb. = im Zusammenarbeit = in collaboration with.
    im Zus. = im Zusammenwirken = in cooperation with.
    Other names.
    HSS = Herausabschuß = Shoot-out i.e. enemy aircraft separated from the protection of its formation.
    e.V. = endgültige Vernichtung = Final Destruction i.e. shooting-down of a straggler previously separated and damaged from its formation as a Herausabschüß
    [HSS]. w.b. = wirklich beschossen = well shot-up or damaged.
    o.Z. = ohne Zeuge = without witness
     
  6. Erich

    Erich the old Sage
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    as said before there are so many inaccuracies in the Freiburg listings Milosh the credits are meaningless I have them stored away good for cross checking only.

    as I said CASE CLOSED !
     
  7. Milosh

    Milosh Well-Known Member

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    As I said the, post was for those that didn't have the claims list.
     
  8. Jabberwocky

    Jabberwocky Active Member

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    Ratsel, what you've posted is the theory, but I believe that the reality of awarding combat victories in the Luftwaffe was quite different.

    Post-war, a US study of German claims on USAAF bombers in 1944 indicate that the likelyhood of a kill being awarded increased in direct proportion to the rank of the pilot.

    The same study reviews Luftwaffe aerial gunnery footage, of around 800 attacks, and found little correlation between what the researcher's deemed a "successful" attack (scoring multiple hits and/or starting fires) and the instance of the claiming pilot being awarded the kill.

    I've got the original document at home on my hard-drive. I'll dig it up when I have the chance.
     
  9. claidemore

    claidemore Member

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    Easy to see why OKL was incredulous about east front claims. Just examine the spread of claims amongst Luftwaffe pilots vs the RAF pre june 41. For example in the 4 last days vs RAF for JG51 therre are eight pilots with claims. As soon as they get to the eastern front, there is day after day with only one guy getting multiple claims and the rest of the pilots with a big fat zero. Even more pointed is examining units that transferred back to ETO or MTO. You would think that the 'claim spread' vs RAF and USAAF (ostensibly tougher opponents) would revert to pre june 41 dynamics, ie claims spread out amongst various pilots, but the trend of one guy with multiple kills continues.
     
  10. Ratsel

    Ratsel Banned

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    Theres a big difference between the RAF VVS. Ask any Luftwaffe pilot and most will tell you the RAF had the best pilots. The VVS had the men and material, and that was about it. The VSS had nowhere near the experiance of the Luftwaffe, so its no wonder so many fell to Luftwaffe guns during Operation Barbarosa. The BoB was a tough battle for the Luftwaffe.

    Element leaders job is to hunt, wingmans job is to spot enemies and keep the flight leader safe ie: rotte. hence, multiple kills and big fat zeros. not sharing of kills. One pilot one kill. An USAAF pilot for example could become an ace with only 1/2 credits by comparison.
     
  11. TheMustangRider

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    Ratsel, take into consideration the element of surprise and superior equipment the LW enjoyed during the summer of '41.
     
  12. Ratsel

    Ratsel Banned

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    Yep, then theres as you said as well. But back to Allied aces for a moment, I belive the 8th airforce allowed pilots credits for destroying parked enemy a/c.. Yet another way to become an Allied ace. Not sure if the VVS was the same.
     
  13. Ratsel

    Ratsel Banned

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    oops. double post for some reason. sorry.
     
  14. Erich

    Erich the old Sage
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    as a ground ace only the same for the LW no difference, US had the ground kills recorded on the A/C the LW did not except for the Schlachtgeschwadern
     
  15. drgondog

    drgondog Well-Known Member

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    The practice of awrding a ground destruction toward ace status did happen in the 8th but post war the ground scores were eliminated from consideration. Those on the rolls in American Fighter Aces all have five or more airctaft destroyed credits for air only.
     
  16. Erich

    Erich the old Sage
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    it also happened in the 9th AF but again as noted : ground ace.
     
  17. Ratsel

    Ratsel Banned

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    Eliminated by who?
     
  18. Kryten

    Kryten Member

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    I did hear the ground kills were included to give the US pilots more incentive to attack targets on defended airfields, which quite understandably they were keeping well away from?

    also dint the RAF have a seperate status for aircraft destroyed on the ground?
     
  19. drgondog

    drgondog Well-Known Member

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    The United States Air Force. The official records of ground scores was eliminated in USAF Study 85 ~ 1958. The Victory Credit repository is the USAFHRC at Maxwell AFB, AL.

    The American Fighter Aces Association adopted the USAF 85 as the official basis for ace status.
     
  20. drgondog

    drgondog Well-Known Member

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    8th AF adopted the policy to further encourage the 8th AF to seek the LW and destroy it in the air and on the Ground as official USAAF policy in the ETO from January 1944 foward. My father's group, the 355th was the top strafing unit in WWII and also had twice as many losses strafing as in air to air combat. Lost zero aces (air) to LW aircraft but lost several to flak strafing airfields.
     
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