Best 50s/60s fighter?

[Jackson]

BAC Lightning Site - Tech Data.

The Lightning was the only British designed and built fighter capable of speeds in excess of Mach 2 to serve with the Royal Air Force. It evolved at a time when Britain led the way in aviation and it suffered at the hands of the government in the same way as did the industry which had created it. There is no doubt that the Lightning will go down in the history books as another classic British fighter. This site is a tribute to the Lightning, to those who served on the Lightning squadrons and to the enthusiasts who have kept airframes either running or in airworthy condition.

Maiden flight 1957-04-04

General characteristics
Crew: 1
Length: 55 ft 3 in (16.84 m)
Wingspan: 34 ft 10 in (10.62 m)
Height: 19 ft 7 in (5.97 m)
Wing area: 474.5 ft² (44.1 m²)
Empty weight: 28,040 lb (12,720 kg)
Max takeoff weight: 41,700 lb (18,900 kg)
Powerplant: 2× Rolls-Royce Avon 301R afterburning turbojets
Dry thrust: 13,220 lbf (58.86 kN) each
Thrust with afterburner: 16,360 lbf (72.77 kN) each
Performance
Maximum speed: Mach 2.27 (1,500 mph, 2,415 km/h) at altitude
Range: 800 mi (1,300 km) combat
Ferry range: 1,560 mi (1,360 nm, 2,500 km)
Service ceiling: >60,000 ft (18,000 m) officially
Rate of climb: 50,000 ft/min (260 m/s)
Wing loading: 87.9 lb/ft² (429 kg/m²)
Thrust/weight: 0.63


Fun to watch ar the air show too

Crikey= straight up off the deck

 

[renrich]

According to the book, "80 Knots to Mach2" the A4 got the J52-P-408 engine with 11,200 pounds of thrust in April of 1970. The author, Richard Linnekin in a F8U-2N came on an A4 north of Pautuxent one afternoon. To quote him," he was there, so I made a run on him." Over the next ten minutes he tried everything, vertical maneuvers, high and low yo yos, rolling scissors( he said never try any kind of scissors with this guy) and every gunnery pass he could think of, and every time he got in gun range the A4's nose was pointing at him with the 20 mms. he could not even claim a decent Sidewinder shot. I know several people who flew the A4 operationally and they did say the cockpit was awful small.

 

[Jackson]

I know a guy that loved it..

and he had flown everything

(Pax is not far from me and I do a lot of Navy contractors, I love hanging out at the 'Crows Nest' adjacent to the front gate, just to look at all the stuff on the walls)

More fun

Patuxent River Naval Air Museum

fun2

 

[FLYBOYJ]

(Pax is not far from me and I do a lot of Navy contractors, I love hanging out at the 'Crows Nest' adjacent to the front gate, just to look at all the stuff on the walls)

BEEN THERE!

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

(Pax is not far from me and I do a lot of Navy contractors,
More fun

I hope those contractors were women...

 

[twoeagles]

every time he got in gun range the A4's nose was pointing at him with the 20 mms. he could not even claim a decent Sidewinder shot.

This pretty well sums up many first encounters with the A-4 as an adversary.
Although I never flew the P-408 engined 'Super Fox', the A-4F with the P-8 was no slouch. It had a prodigeous roll rate that would damn near snatch your helmet off, and that delta planform wing would let you pull so hard your g-suit would squeeze your nuts up under your chin. In a mid-level gunfight with the F-4 or the F-14, the Scooter was exceptionally difficult to target, and those pilots learned quickly that their best bet was early radar detection and missiles. If only the A-4 had been supersonic, too. Add a couple of SUU-23, and she was decidedly fearsome, but flying clean was her element. Flying with VF-126 as a Bandit was doggone close to the most fun I have ever had. And I have trouble believing it has been 30+ years now...

 

[Matt308]

Most excellent twoeagles! Understanding mission specifics play into my question, what was a typical loadout for an interdiction mission and how much range could you get out of her?

 

[FLYBOYJ]

This pretty well sums up many first encounters with the A-4 as an adversary.
Although I never flew the P-408 engined 'Super Fox', the A-4F with the P-8 was no slouch. It had a prodigeous roll rate that would damn near snatch your helmet off, and that delta planform wing would let you pull so hard your g-suit would squeeze your nuts up under your chin. In a mid-level gunfight with the F-4 or the F-14, the Scooter was exceptionally difficult to target, and those pilots learned quickly that their best bet was early radar detection and missiles. If only the A-4 had been supersonic, too. Add a couple of SUU-23, and she was decidedly fearsome, but flying clean was her element. Flying with VF-126 as a Bandit was doggone close to the most fun I have ever had. And I have trouble believing it has been 30+ years now...

Sounded like it was a blast - reading your description is a carbon copy of what one of my flight instructors said about the Scooter. He flew her in Vietnam and later at Pax River chasing drones.

 

[renrich]

Very good, Herr Adler. Linnekin's book is outstanding. If youall run across it somewhere it is worth a read. He started flying in Stearmans and the most high performance plane he flew was the F4.

 

[glfpa23]

As a kid in the '50's, the ONLY fighter plane was the "Sabrejet". It is a design that just plain works.

ONE hit from an Aden would surely ta ta a Sabre.

 

[nuuumannn]

Eight years ago, Adler said this

Watched an interesting documentary on the dogfights between the Mig-15s and the Sabres in the Korean War. Most of the Mig-15s were flown by Russian Pilots. They were interviewing both Russian Mig pilots and US Sabre Pilots.

I don't know if it was the same as a documentary I once saw about Sabres and MiG-15s, but they had this Russian guy and took him to a museum with an F-86 and put him in the cockpit. All I can remember is the broad grin he had on his face when seated in the American jet.

I've sat in the cockpits of both (grounded examples in museums) and by far the F-86 had better visibility. The MiG-15 has a slight nose up attitude on the ground, whereas the F-86 pilot is sitting on top of the world. The Russian cockpits of the era were well laid out and simple by comparison to their Western counterparts, almost as if they were designed for children to fly. British 1950s jet cockpits were an ergonomic nightmare and look as if they were designed by children, however.

 

[Njaco]

Best 50s/60s fighter?

Rocky Marciano

 

[Lucky13]

Not Cassius Clay?

 

[R Pope]

ONE hit from an Aden would surely ta ta a Sabre.

But first ya gotta hit 'em!

 

[R Pope]

The A4 was based on an unbuilt fighter design. That might explain the agility.....

 

[FLYBOYJ]

The A4 was based on an unbuilt fighter design. That might explain the agility.....

Your source for that one???

The A-4 was developed as a replacement for the Skyraider.

From Wiki...

"The Skyhawk was designed by Douglas Aircraft's Ed Heinemann in response to a U.S. Navy call for a jet-powered attack aircraft to replace the older Douglas AD Skyraider (later redesignated A-1 Skyraider). Heinemann opted for a design that would minimize its size, weight, and complexity. The result was an aircraft that weighed only half of the Navy's weight specification."

"Heinemann believed in "simplifying and adding lightness" when it came to aircraft design. He had startled the Navy when he proposed a new attack plane that weighed only one-half the gross weight of the Navy specification. Using a delta-wing design with conventional tail surfaces, Heinemann was able to create a lightweight attack fighter that combined speed, range, and firepower into a tiny package."

HowStuffWorks "Douglas A-4 Skyhawk"



On June 12, 1952, the U.S. Navy contracted with Douglas Aircraft Company of El Segundo, California, to build one prototype XA4D-1 Skyhawk attack aircraft.


In October 1952, after review of the proposed design, the Navy ordered an additonal 19 A-4s.


Literally "hand built," XA4D-1, BuNo 137812, was the first of an eventual 2,960 Skyhawks to roll off the Douglas Aircraft Company assembly line. Powered by a Curtiss-Wright J65-W-16A engine, it had a one-piece windscreen, no tailhook or refueling probe, and the "sugar scoop" exhaust baffle was not yet conceived.


The first Skyhawk flight, flown by Douglas test pilot Robert Rahn, took place at Edwards Air Force Base, California, on June 22, 1954.

Original Concept Blueprint;

http://a4skyhawk.org/specials/rgblueprint/rg-orig-blueprint.htm


http://a4skyhawk.org/2c/productionhistory.htm

 

[R Pope]

Flyboyj...Actually read that in a few places over the years, the latest being in Air Space magazine a few months ago. An article about dissimilar aircraft combat training where the A4 is the foreign aggressor. Can't find the mag just now, though. Had a book on Douglas that went into it in some detail, but that book burned up in my brothers house years ago.....

 

[The Basket]

MiG-17 outperformed the F-86.
MiG-15 was on a par with F-86 but Sabre was better flying machine.

Best 60s jet has to be F-4 Phantom.
Best sheer performance is EE Lightning.
Soft spot goes to F-5 as it looks good.
Best crazy goes to F-104 which even today looks Buck Rogers.

 

[R Pope]

I think the Saab J29 deserves at least an honourable mention here. It was used all through the '50's and into the '60's and saw combat with the UN in Africa. Gave up very little to the F86 or Mig 15. Sure, not the best, but an admirable effort by a small, independent player in a big boy's game.It first flew in 1949!

 

[FLYBOYJ]

MiG-17 outperformed the F-86.

Depends what model. I think the later models were at least on par with the MiG-17, start with the F-86H and look at the CAC Sabre