Best Fighter III
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Yes, and it certainly proved that as-well by totally slaughtering its VVS opposition, even the very fast maneuverable Yak-3 proved no match for the Dora-9.
Sgt. Pappy
Airman 1st Class
- 197
- Jun 7, 2006
Sgt.Pappy,
Here you can see the effects the different types of flaps have on the CLmax, and as you can see the split flap system is actually more effective than the slotted flap system:
Thanks for the document, Soren, I've been looking all over the place for this.
Anyway, I can see that for the same given airfoil the slotted flap seems to produce more drag than lift and thus a lower Clmax, but the Corsair and the 190 (and Spitfire) all have different foils. I'll be sure to ask the Aces High II guys about it though.
Meanwhile let me post something they found. It's a pdf file: http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/fw190/ptr-1107.pdf
The FW-190A in that test suffered from improperly adjusted ailerons which led to premature stalling in turns, hence the results. The right fuel wasn't used either, the engine running very roughly, which means less power which in turn affects sustained turn performance, again hence the results.
Sgt. Pappy
Airman 1st Class
- 197
- Jun 7, 2006
Which is why I said, crump, that you could visit the Aces High II forums.
People there are just as real as you are. Much of the discussion revolves around real performance vs. the game's performance.
There's way too many other factors that determine turn rate... not just that the NACA tests say that split flaps are more efficient than slotted flaps. The Corsair's bent wing for example was solely created to allow for short gear, but it had unknown side-effects like decreasing drag at the wing root and giving the aircraft poor elevator authority when all three wheels were on the ground, as one of the smarter member of the Aces High community stated.
Good point Soren, I knew there would be something wrong with an Allied-captured Axis fighter.
Yes, flaps may often seem very dangerous to use over 20 degrees for example. But that's just the manual. WEP is suggested to not be used for over 5 mins but pilots have 'WEPped' it for well over 7 minutes. Flaps aren't much different. The plane uses full flaps to land, raising AoA and lift co-efficient. The math i posted supoprts it. There's no 'games' in math. It's proven, give it a read, it's quite interesting.
The Corsair's flaps are very likely to add more lift than drag even at 40 degrees because the manual also states that the flaps may be used for short take-offs at 50 degrees. If they added too much drag, this wouldnt be stated, especially by the manual, designed for pilot safety.
People there are just as real as you are. Much of the discussion revolves around real performance vs. the game's performance.
There's way too many other factors that determine turn rate... not just that the NACA tests say that split flaps are more efficient than slotted flaps. The Corsair's bent wing for example was solely created to allow for short gear, but it had unknown side-effects like decreasing drag at the wing root and giving the aircraft poor elevator authority when all three wheels were on the ground, as one of the smarter member of the Aces High community stated.
Good point Soren, I knew there would be something wrong with an Allied-captured Axis fighter.
Yes, flaps may often seem very dangerous to use over 20 degrees for example. But that's just the manual. WEP is suggested to not be used for over 5 mins but pilots have 'WEPped' it for well over 7 minutes. Flaps aren't much different. The plane uses full flaps to land, raising AoA and lift co-efficient. The math i posted supoprts it. There's no 'games' in math. It's proven, give it a read, it's quite interesting.
The Corsair's flaps are very likely to add more lift than drag even at 40 degrees because the manual also states that the flaps may be used for short take-offs at 50 degrees. If they added too much drag, this wouldnt be stated, especially by the manual, designed for pilot safety.
Soundbreaker Welch?
Tech Sergeant
How about best stalling tactics?
Sgt. Pappy,
The difference between Crumpp and the people at the Aces High II Forum is that Crumpp has actual real life experience and expert knowledge on the subject. Crumpp unlike the guys at AHII works with these a/c daily, currently he works on a an actual FW-190 (White 1), you can visit here: Focke-Wulf FW 190 - White 1
As to the flaps, Crumpp's point was that applying anymore than a little flaps will be detrimental to turn performance, he's probably talking beyond around 15 degree's which is the max any fighter pilot will use in a dogfight really. Using anymore and you'll loose speed to quickly and your critical AoA has dropped too low.
The difference between Crumpp and the people at the Aces High II Forum is that Crumpp has actual real life experience and expert knowledge on the subject. Crumpp unlike the guys at AHII works with these a/c daily, currently he works on a an actual FW-190 (White 1), you can visit here: Focke-Wulf FW 190 - White 1
As to the flaps, Crumpp's point was that applying anymore than a little flaps will be detrimental to turn performance, he's probably talking beyond around 15 degree's which is the max any fighter pilot will use in a dogfight really. Using anymore and you'll loose speed to quickly and your critical AoA has dropped too low.
That is correct. Typically large flap deflections will increase our drag by 75%. This means our power required goes up by 75%. The same angle of bank that required 2200hp for the F4U to sustain, now requires 3850hp to match it.
As for games, there are plenty of folks in the gaming community with enough knowledge to be dangerous and a game play agenda to motivate them. Sorry but I only post on gaming boards at the request of our paid museum members. Even then I restrict myself to topics of interest.
Soren,
I haven't read much of this thread at all. However at a quick glance, there is erroneous conclusions from both sides Or at least unsubstantiated conclusions. Given the science behind aircraft, these discussion's are down right silly at times IMHO.
The largest deciding factor is going to be the pilot.
All the best,
Crumpp
Agreed completely Crumpp.
Btw Sgt. Pappy, I just noticed that you wrote this in your post: "The plane uses full flaps to land, raising AoA and lift co-efficient"
Flaps increase the CLmax, yes, but the critical AoA is lowered. You can see that on the table I provided as-well.
What you can also see on the table is that slotted flaps are actually more detrimental to turn performance pr. degree of deflection than split flaps, giving the Fw-190 an advantage over most Allied fighters when deploying flaps in combat.
Btw Sgt. Pappy, I just noticed that you wrote this in your post: "The plane uses full flaps to land, raising AoA and lift co-efficient"
Flaps increase the CLmax, yes, but the critical AoA is lowered. You can see that on the table I provided as-well.
What you can also see on the table is that slotted flaps are actually more detrimental to turn performance pr. degree of deflection than split flaps, giving the Fw-190 an advantage over most Allied fighters when deploying flaps in combat.
Crumpp how is the White 1 project going?
I hope when I return to the United States to help out on a restoration project one time. Do you guys use regular old A&P's as well?
I hope when I return to the United States to help out on a restoration project one time. Do you guys use regular old A&P's as well?
We are on scheduale but as always, the money is tight.
We have just a few paid staff, that would be our A&P's! Everyone else is a volunteer.
Drop by, we will more than happy to put you to work for as long as you like!
Let me know if you get a time and dates.
All the best,
Crumpp
We have just a few paid staff, that would be our A&P's! Everyone else is a volunteer.
Drop by, we will more than happy to put you to work for as long as you like!
Let me know if you get a time and dates.
All the best,
Crumpp
Oh I am not returning any time soon. I am staying in Germany until my wife is finished with her studies. I was just saying that when we do finally return to the states, I hope to volunteer and help out on a project at some point.
I understand that it is not anytime soon. Just letting you know that we are open to volunteer workers. White 1 is on schedule to fly in 2009 and our Mustang will still be under restoration but will be close to being finished.
After White 1 we have a Dora scheduled for restoration in JV44 colors. So there will be work!
All the best,
Crumpp
After White 1 we have a Dora scheduled for restoration in JV44 colors. So there will be work!
All the best,
Crumpp
I am sure I will drop in at some time in the future!
Sgt. Pappy
Airman 1st Class
- 197
- Jun 7, 2006
Ah okay, thanks Crumpp and Soren. I'm understanding this a little better.
It really helps me to get conclusions from both sides .. the gamers' and the non-gamers.
At any rate I always thought the slotted flap did a lot more than the split since the air was pressurized then ran over the top of the flap. Using Bernoulli's princ. lift must be produced. What, then, gives the split flap an advantage over the slotted?
Also, I just recently figured out that the 190 and Corsair have the same air-foil. Does this most likely mean a Spitfire 14 will turn tighter than the F4U under the same speeds at the sea-level for example?
It really helps me to get conclusions from both sides .. the gamers' and the non-gamers.
At any rate I always thought the slotted flap did a lot more than the split since the air was pressurized then ran over the top of the flap. Using Bernoulli's princ. lift must be produced. What, then, gives the split flap an advantage over the slotted?
Also, I just recently figured out that the 190 and Corsair have the same air-foil. Does this most likely mean a Spitfire 14 will turn tighter than the F4U under the same speeds at the sea-level for example?
Sgt. Pappy
Airman 1st Class
- 197
- Jun 7, 2006
Soren,
The chart disproves my assumption that the split flap is less efficient than the slotted-flap. This, though, IMO does not necessarily mean that an F4U Corsair cannot turn tighter than a Spitfire XIV at the same speed, that is, the F4U may pull more AoA at the same speeds because of its good instantaneous turn rate. I could be wrong, but the math doesn't seem to show that I am. There are just too many factors including thrust produced, weight, centre of gravity (I think), propellor efficiency, Again, it's my opinion, I could be wrong.
Crumpp,
I'm not making an offensive comment when I say this.. Have you flown the F4U-1A or 1D before (or its Goodyear or Brewster cousins)? I'd like to know what it was like to pull those planes with flaps down. Then again, I do understand that it is very difficult to pull these vintage planes to their performance envelope without possibly damaging something.
The chart disproves my assumption that the split flap is less efficient than the slotted-flap. This, though, IMO does not necessarily mean that an F4U Corsair cannot turn tighter than a Spitfire XIV at the same speed, that is, the F4U may pull more AoA at the same speeds because of its good instantaneous turn rate. I could be wrong, but the math doesn't seem to show that I am. There are just too many factors including thrust produced, weight, centre of gravity (I think), propellor efficiency, Again, it's my opinion, I could be wrong.
Crumpp,
I'm not making an offensive comment when I say this.. Have you flown the F4U-1A or 1D before (or its Goodyear or Brewster cousins)? I'd like to know what it was like to pull those planes with flaps down. Then again, I do understand that it is very difficult to pull these vintage planes to their performance envelope without possibly damaging something.
Hehe, no Sgt. Pappy, the aircraft can't pull a higher AoA than the critical AoA of the wing itself, it is afterall the wing which holds up the aircraft 
After the critical AoA is reached the a/c stalls. The only way of delaying this and allowing the aircraft to pull higher AoA's is fitting it with automatic LE slats.
And I'd certainly like to see this math you so often have mentioned by now.
Also how exactly have you come to the conclusion that F4U-4 possesses a higher instantaneous turn rate than the Spitfire Mk.XIV ??
After the critical AoA is reached the a/c stalls. The only way of delaying this and allowing the aircraft to pull higher AoA's is fitting it with automatic LE slats. And I'd certainly like to see this math you so often have mentioned by now.
Also how exactly have you come to the conclusion that F4U-4 possesses a higher instantaneous turn rate than the Spitfire Mk.XIV ??
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