best fighter of ww II

[evangilder]

Yes and no. They started cross channel excursions in late 1943, but the long range escort missions didn't start until 1944. The first P-51 escort to Berlin was in March of 1944. The 8th received their first Merlin powered Mustangs in October of 1943 but didn't start across the channel until December of 1943, scoring their first victory on December 16 on a mission to Bremen.

It should be noted that the range was expanded with the drop tanks. The first drop tanks were 85 gallon drop tanks on the centerline, aft of the pilots position. This dramatically changed the center of gravity, affecting the directional stability until the tank was empty. From what I have read, the directional stability with the extra tank presented quite a challenge to pilots, especially new and inexperienced pilots. Limiting the tank to 65 gallons helped, but it was still a factor. It did extend the range for them though and got them farther. But I would think if they encountered fighters early on the mission, the tanks would be a negative factor in the fight and might even have to be jettisoned with fuel still in it so that they could be effective in the dogfight.

The key benefit of the 38 on the escort missions was the redundancy of the engines. They could make it back with only one and fight another day. You didn't have that luxury with the P-51.

 

[Lightning Guy]

The 85 gallon tank on the P-51 to which you referred was not a drop tank but an internal tank located directly behind the pilot. The stability problems were quite a problem. I have read that it became standard practice to use the fuselage tank before using the drop tanks. The result was that (quite often) half-full or better drop tanks had to be jettisoned limiting the range of the escort.

There were two different types of drop tanks used on the P-51. One was an aluminum design containing 75 gallons and the other was actually constructed of layers of paper glued together and contained 108 gallons. This was done as glued paper was of no advantage to the Germans if the dropped tanks were recovered. However, the gasoline had the nasty habit of eating through the glue and the tanks could not be pressurised. The result was than the 75 gallon aluminum was most used.

 

[Lightning Guy]

It should be noted that the number of P-38s available in the ETO during the early part of the bomber campaign was limited due to the high demand for P-38s in the MTO and PTO. There were really on two 8th AF FG to see much action with the P-38 (the 20th FG and the 55th FG) and they would often find themselves out numbered by as many as 10-1.

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

going bact to an earlier post, i'd rather be out in a spit than a P-38...............

 

[lesofprimus]

As it pains me to say this, I would too... The -38 killed alot of its pilots because their skill wasnt up to par...

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

spit looked better too...............

 

[Lightning Guy]

The P-38 was a difficult plane to learn to fight in, but as it pilots would tell you, twin-engined training in America was a joke. But here is something to consider . . .

Col. Taylor of the 14th FG MTO said,
"It required at least twice as much flying time, perhaps more, to chieve the level of skill which was necessary to realise the full capability of the ship, as compared with what it took with a single engine fighter. Only after about 150 or 200 hours could a man hope to be an expert, but when he reached that point he could be unbeatable in the 38."

 

[evangilder]

You are right about the tank, my bad. If it was aft of the pilto and underneath, that would have placed it in the air scoop! (DOH!). The directional stability issue this caused was a problem. Some say the first hour of flight, the pilot had to concentrate on just getting to plane to fly straight, and in the direction they wanted. Not a good scenario!

The two-engined training was almost no-existent for the young P-38 pilots. Also being the first airplane to experience the compressibility, at least on the American side, that didn't give an inexperienced pilot much room for error. Once they properly adjusted to it though, they could use the P-38 as a formidable weapon.

The 2 top aces of the US both flew P-38s, Richard Bong and Thomas McGuire. That should say something about the P-38.

 

[lesofprimus]

Only after about 150 or 200 hours could a man hope to be an expert

Unfortunatly, alot of pilots either crashed or died in combat before those #'s were reached....

 

[Lightning Guy]

That's not 150 hours of combat, but 150 hours of flight time period. Getting the P-38 into service was considered a maximum effort. That meant that a lot of pilots were entering combat with as little as 25 hrs in the type. Now if the training had been up to par (say what alot of those P-51 pilots were receiving in 1944) things might have been a lot different.

Raymond Crawford (P-38 pilot in the MTO) had this to say,
"If a pilot survived his first 10 missions, he could count on about a 90 to 100 percent chance of finishing 50 or more missions without becoming a statistic."

The P-38 was like the B-26, it was a handful to learn, but it proved a very powerful weapon once it was learned.

 

[lesofprimus]

And 40% of P-38 pilots didnt survive their first 10 missions....

 

[Lightning Guy]

Where in the world did you get that number?

 

[lesofprimus]

I made it up to prove a point.....

 

[Lightning Guy]

Some how making up numbers doesn't seem to prove anything. I will grant that the numbers I cited were an opinion . . . but they were the open of a pilot who was there and who saw what a properly handled P-38 could do.

 

[lesofprimus]

Out of all the American aircraft used in WWII, the P-38 had the highest # of accidents and pilot deaths per sortie...

The -38 wasnt considered the best of anything until the latter versions started to be produced... Both the -190 and the -51 were both dominating from the time they went operational, let alone the D series variants...

Best fighter is an opinion of the poster, thats it.. While I can sit here and blow on ur -38, you can do the same to my -190.... Its almost pointless...

All in all, the P-51D, the Spit XIV (or IX), the P-38J, and the Fw-190D make out the top 4 outta 5.... Add in the Hellcat or the Corsair and uve got the Top 5...

 

[Gemhorse]

I reckon we could rate all these fine aircraft on many various criteria... Over the period of those 6 years, technological developments accererated as in no other time in previous history...But when it comes to an aircraft uplifting the morale of Nations.....

-I've just been given a loan of the RAF 485 [NZ] Sqn.'s RNZAF Official History book, and in reading the foreword, written by Group Captain E.P. [Hawkeye] Wells, DSO,DFC and Bar, [12+ kills], he states...
'I arrived in the U.K. during those eventful days of the summer of 1940. France had just fallen and the future looked very black, but in spite of these preoccupations, I still remember clearly the thrill of my first flight in a Spitfire and my pride when I landed this beautiful but fragile creature without damage and the confidence this gave me for the task ahead. This splendid aircraft was to be my mount for the whole of the War and, although we had some nasty moments together, she never failed me. I know there are many others, not only in 485 Sqn, who were served equally faithfully by the valiant Spitfire...'
- The Squadron went operational from Driffield, [Yorks;] in March 1941 to end up in Fassberg, [Germany;] during April-July 1945, and flew Spitfire variants.... F Mk.1 ; F Mk.1A ; F Mk.IIA ; F Mk.VB ; LF Mk.VB ; LF LR Mk.VB ; F Mk.VC ; F Mk.IXB ; and LF Mk.XVI. over this period.

- When you remember the 'Spitfire Fund' and how that spurned this huge patriotic effort to help build-up the 'Fighter Force to go against the invading Hun', [and then the Jap,] and this occurred right across the Commonwealth, there wasn't or I believe hasn't been any aircraft ever, that has engendered that level of Recognition and Praise....It didn't just win the battle, it went on to help win the War.....particuarly in the 'Peoples' mind.....
- I love all these aircraft that we're discussing, they were each and every one of them unique, powerful, devastating weapons on wings, and although the Mosquito [and Hornet] are my most favourite, at the end of the Day, the Spitfire is my final firm choice of 'Best Fighter'....the 'Peoples' Choice'....

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

It didn't just win the battle, it went on to help win the War

if you're refering to the BoB it's proberly worthy of note that the hurricane accounted for more planes than all other defences combined, but it did help win the war.................

 

[cheddar cheese]

when the hurricane was at its peak it was formidable

 

[evangilder]

The Hurricane is my favorite. It was the unsung hero of the BoB. Unfortunately, the one in our museum was sold to a collector in Canada
It was the only flying example of a Hurricane in North America. Fortunately, I got some nice pics of it before it was shipped out. The worst part was, it was trucked out, not flown!

 

[cheddar cheese]

the hurricane is probably my favourite fighter too