Best Fighter

[Yeomanz]

I wonder what would happen if that engine came on all of a sudden

 

[Nonskimmer]

Then GRG would be a little crispy. What was left of him, that is.

 

[evangilder]

The Tumansky engines in the Foxbat were notoriously unreliable.

 

[Nonskimmer]

From what I've gathered, that's a problem that's long plagued Soviet/Russian aircraft.

 

[wmaxt]

I believe those numbers are not exactly correct. The actual fuel capacity of the main tanks on the P-38 were 93 gallons. Outer wing tanks held 62 gallons in the L models. Also, the external tanks had a true capacity of 310 gallons though they were often referred to as 300 gallon tanks. Milo Burcham demonstrated a ferry range of better than 3,000 miles for an early model P-38s. Late war F-5Gs were supposed to have been capable of actual missions covering 3,500miles.

Tour Preaching to the choir!

I've seen those numbers, both sets, I tried to use the "normaly accepted numbers" for a comparison of relative efficency of the two aircraft in normal operation. Both the 55gal and the 62gal outer wing tanks are cited so I used both.

 

[DaveB.inVa]

I thought it might be of interest to everyone to read the Clay Tice story. Tice was the first person to land in Japan. He did so in a P-38L. He states in his report that they were carrying over 700 gallons in a single 310 gallon ferry tank on the left pylon as well as leading edge slipper tanks in addition to internal fuel. On the right pylon was a single 1000lb GP bomb!

http://www.aerofiles.com/tice.html

 

[wmaxt]

I thought it might be of interest to everyone to read the Clay Tice story. Tice was the first person to land in Japan. He did so in a P-38L. He states in his report that they were carrying over 700 gallons in a single 310 gallon ferry tank on the left pylon as well as leading edge slipper tanks in addition to internal fuel. On the right pylon was a single 1000lb GP bomb!

http://www.aerofiles.com/tice.html

Great story I haven't seen it before. Thanks.

The 700+ gallons, I'm sure, is full internal fuel 424gal + 1ea 300/310 in the drop tank and 1 large (up to 2,000lb bomb). This is a standard load out for a long range strike mission. With this loadout the P-38 was more than capable of this range.

The wing tanks he refered to are the wing leading edge tanks (internal) 62gal sometimes refered to as "Tokio Tanks".

 

[Medvedya]

The Tumansky engines in the Foxbat were notoriously unreliable.

Just a very quick aside about the Foxbat and the incident when a Soviet pilot defected to Japan - bringing with him a Mig-25......

Lt. Viktor Belenko's defection to the West gave the United States the opportunity to closely examine the Mig-25. The aircraft was completely dismantled and then carefully inspected by aviation scientists and engineers from both Japan and the United States. Upon dismantling the Mig-25, the data was analyzed by the Foreign Technology Division of the Air Force at Dayton, Ohio.

"My God! Look what this thing is made of! Why, the dumb bastards don't have transistors; they're still using vacuum tubes! These engines are monsters! Maybe the Sovs have a separate refinery for each plane! Jesus! See these rivet heads sticking out, and look at that welding! They did it by hand! Hell, the pilot can't see a thing unless it's practically in front of him! This contraption isn't an airplane; it's a rocket! Hey, see what they've done here! How clever! They were able to use aluminum! Why didn't we ever think of that? How ingenious! It's brilliant!"---

MiG Pilot : The Final Escape of Lieutenant Belenko

On November 12, 1976, sixty-seven days after the defection of Belenko and his Mig-25 to the West, the United States and Japan returned the Mig-25 to Russia...in dismantled pieces!

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

that's a good story

 

[Nonskimmer]

 

[wmaxt]

The Tumansky engines in the Foxbat were notoriously unreliable.

Just a very quick aside about the Foxbat and the incident when a Soviet pilot defected to Japan - bringing with him a Mig-25......

Lt. Viktor Belenko's defection to the West gave the United States the opportunity to closely examine the Mig-25. The aircraft was completely dismantled and then carefully inspected by aviation scientists and engineers from both Japan and the United States. Upon dismantling the Mig-25, the data was analyzed by the Foreign Technology Division of the Air Force at Dayton, Ohio.

"My God! Look what this thing is made of! Why, the dumb bastards don't have transistors; they're still using vacuum tubes! These engines are monsters! Maybe the Sovs have a separate refinery for each plane! Jesus! See these rivet heads sticking out, and look at that welding! They did it by hand! Hell, the pilot can't see a thing unless it's practically in front of him! This contraption isn't an airplane; it's a rocket! Hey, see what they've done here! How clever! They were able to use aluminum! Why didn't we ever think of that? How ingenious! It's brilliant!"---

MiG Pilot : The Final Escape of Lieutenant Belenko

On November 12, 1976, sixty-seven days after the defection of Belenko and his Mig-25 to the West, the United States and Japan returned the Mig-25 to Russia...in dismantled pieces!

There's one Soviet plane an early Yak jet that was smuggled out of Romania or Hungary or one of the satelite countries in that region. Anyway, it was smuggled out assembled (it started out crated) tested, dismanteled to the last rivet rebuilt and sent back. Nobody knew about the incident until the freedom of information act released the paperwork.

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

 

[Nonskimmer]

I hope for their sake, the guards of the time had long since covered their tracks! Try explaining that to the local Commissar!

 

[Medvedya]

Yes, that holiday on the Black Sea would be at great risk I'd say.

 

[GermansRGeniuses]

The Dodge Viper of fighters...

Fast, simple, extremely powerful, beautiful, horrible at turning, and they both have HUGE engines, as evidenced by the last picture...BRUTAL.

Actually, I thought the Viper handled much better than I expected on real roads. The Corvette Z06 was a little better, but not as much as I expected.

=S=

Lunatic

I actually mean the first generation, but if that's the one you drove, then...

 

[Anonymous]

The Dodge Viper of fighters...

Fast, simple, extremely powerful, beautiful, horrible at turning, and they both have HUGE engines, as evidenced by the last picture...BRUTAL.

Actually, I thought the Viper handled much better than I expected on real roads. The Corvette Z06 was a little better, but not as much as I expected.

=S=

Lunatic

I got to drive the 2003 Viper, Z06 Corvette, and Porche 911 summer before last. All were less than 6 months old at that time. On the street (La Jolla CA, a suburb of San Diego), the Vette seemed the fastest by a hair, but the Porche felt smoother.

Note: The Vette has since been returned under the lemon law for a #8 cylinder noise problem GM refused to fix.

=S=

Lunatic

 

[Lightning Guy]

I don't believe I have seen any source that has published the 93 gallon figure for the main tanks on the P-38. Interestingly, however, close examination of cockpit photos list 'Main 93 Gallons' as one of the options on the tank selector switch.

 

[R Pope]

Guys-- two squadrons of Whirlwinds were used in 1942-43 on offensive fighter sweeps over Europe. The Peregrine engines were not used on any other production type, so they were dropped. The pilots called for reinstating production to replace losses, but they were ignored. One of Britain's major goofs. Would have been a world-beater with Merlins! But it was a "real" WW2 fighter.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I think it would have been a better ground attack aircraft than a fighter.

The Westland Whirlwind

Summary

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Westland's choice to to produce a high-speed fighter must have seemed somewhat unlikely, but the company tendered against Specification F.37/35 and in January 1939 won a production contract for 200 aircraft. The first of two Whirlwind prototypes flew on 11 October 1938, but the Air Ministry lowered a security curtain around the new fighter which was not to be raised until August 1941. This caused a considerable amount of amusement, since a French technical paper had published drawings in 1938, and there was every reason to suppose that the Germans knew about the Whirlwind. The new type was interesting on several accounts due to the fact it was the RAF's first twin-engined fighter, and had low-altitude performance that was better than that of any contemporary single-seat fighter. Furthermore, its four 20-mm nose-mounted cannon gave a weight of fire of 600 lbs. per minute, which conferred firepower superior to that of any other fighter in the world. Production deliereries began to No. 263 Squadron at Drem in July of 1940, and the squadron settled down to eliminate the inevitable bugs in the new airframe and engines(Rolls Royce Peregrine). More trouble was also experienced with the cannon but the squadron scored its first confirmed success with the destruction of an Arado Ar 196 floatplane February 8th, 1941. Due to the shortage of engines only eight Whirlwinds had been received by the RAF at the end of 1940. No. 137 was the second (and only other) squadron to bo equipped with Whirlwinds; it was formed at Charrny Down on 20 September 1941 combined with No. 263 Squadron personnel. While the new fighter proved to have excellent performance at low altitude, it was at a distinct disadvantage combat against other fighters began to move to higher altitudes, and it was necessary to restrict Whirlwind operations to a lower level where, for a time, the type proved useful for light bombing operations and fighter sweeps. By 1940 it became evident that the Whirlwind had its drawbacks, engine unreliability being high on the list, while high landing speed restricted the number of airfields it could use. The initial order for 200 was cut to 112, and a second order for 200 was cancelled, with the last production aircraft off the line and flying in January 1942. In June 1943 No. 137 Squadron was re-equipped with rocket-firing Hawker Hurricane IVs, while No. 263 gave up its Whirlwinds for Hawker Typhoons in December of that year. Some experimental work had taken place with Whirlwinds. The second prototype undertook night-fighting trials with No. 25 Squadron, a Blenheim Mk IF unit, between May and July 1940. The first prototype was tested with an armament of 12 Browning 0.303-cal. machine-guns; and another had a 37-mm cannon installed. One Whirlwind survived the war, being used under civil markings as a Westland hack during 1946-7, before being dismantled in the latter year.

Specifications


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Type: Single seat long range fighter/fighter bomber

Span: 45 feet
Lenght; 32 ft. 9 in.
Height: 11 ft. 7 in.
Weight: empty 8,310 lbs. max take off 11,388 lbs.
Armament: four 20 mm cannon in the nose, plus up to 1,000 lb bombs
Engine: two 885 hp Rolls Royce Peregrine inline piston engines.

Performance


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Max speed: 360 mph at 15,000 ft.
Service Ceiling: 30,000 ft

Operators: RAF
http://www.fighterplanes.net/whirlwind.html

 

[Lightning Guy]

The Whirlwind had a number of detail problems in its design. For example, there was no way to transfer fuel to either engine. Fuel load and ammo load were both relatively low. There was no provision for carrying external fuel. And the idea of a Merlin powered Whirlwind is not as simple as it sounds. The Merlin was much larger than the Peregrine and the Whirlwind would have required considerable increases in structural strength to hold the engines and increases in control surface area to handle to increased power. It would have made more sense for the RAF to expirement with Merlins in a P-322.