KraziKanuK
Banned
- 792
- Jan 26, 2005
I don't know why no one has mentioned how cramped the ROs station in the P-38 was. Even if you were a runt you still emerged as a hunch-back after a mission.
Best Nightfighter of WW2 (Continued)
- Thread starter cheddar cheese
- Start date
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mosquitoman
Master Sergeant
There was a Mossie flying a while ago but it crashed and I think there are 1 or 2 projects to get one flying again. The prototype W4050 is at the deHavilland Museum- one place I NEED to go to
mosquitoman
Master Sergeant
What's the armament on it then?
Erich
the old Sage
nonsense. The He 219 was not one of the finest German nf's period...........we have discussed this at length previously.
The Ar 234C never flew in action. Streibs 6 kills are suspect.
The Ar 234C never flew in action. Streibs 6 kills are suspect.
the lancaster kicks ass
Major General
- 19,937
- Dec 20, 2003
and wasn't it that the P-38M never actually shot a plane down at night during the war??
KraziKanuK
Banned
- 792
- Jan 26, 2005
GT said:
GT, I am not holding it against you, but you do need to find better reference sources.
You should look at the claims list for that night. Streib only got 1 Lancaster.
01:05 - Halifax
01:20 - Halifax
01:55 - Halifax
02:16 - Lancaster
02:22 - Halifax
http://jg26.vze.com/ >
Tony Wood's site at the bottom of the page.
Reich Western Front 1943. Vol IV
I'll let you look for the Mossie claims for the next 10 days.
Erich
the old Sage
Streib, Modrow and the others did not care for the Bf 110G-4 and wanted another alternative. the He 219 was the alternative for the moment. the craft was heavy, too big and as I have mentioned had inferior engines, weak wing spars, armament was too heavy and reduced to fit. Ejection seats did not work much of the time and killed several crews, most of the Uhu's did not have rear warning radar making them prey for the MOssie nf's.
the prime case in point is the other NJG's not caring for the existing Uhu such as NJG 5, Nachtjagstaffel Norwegen, 3./NJGr 10, and the main focus to NJG 3 to change over and they were equipped with the latest A version and refused to fly it as they had the Ju 88G-6 which was superior to the He 219. Thats the fact friend. Too much written crap on the net and in old books. You will see some enlightening materials on the Uhu in our book covering it's ops agasint Mossie bombers. One thing for such a hot bird the craft in NJg 1's possession only scored 12 victories against the Mossie, and I./NJG 1's record with the heavy Uhu was lacking in comparison with other Bf 110G-4 gruppen of NJG 1 when it came to scoring RAF bombers.
Lanc remember my post on the P-38M and it's non operations in the war ?
the prime case in point is the other NJG's not caring for the existing Uhu such as NJG 5, Nachtjagstaffel Norwegen, 3./NJGr 10, and the main focus to NJG 3 to change over and they were equipped with the latest A version and refused to fly it as they had the Ju 88G-6 which was superior to the He 219. Thats the fact friend. Too much written crap on the net and in old books. You will see some enlightening materials on the Uhu in our book covering it's ops agasint Mossie bombers. One thing for such a hot bird the craft in NJg 1's possession only scored 12 victories against the Mossie, and I./NJG 1's record with the heavy Uhu was lacking in comparison with other Bf 110G-4 gruppen of NJG 1 when it came to scoring RAF bombers.
Lanc remember my post on the P-38M and it's non operations in the war ?
Erich
the old Sage
Lastly accordong to the official Nachtjägd claims listing and this from Freiburg under Bestätigte Nachtjagdabschüsse Chef für Auszeichnung und Disziplin which Tony did not use, I./NJG 1 with the Uhu was given credit for only 8 RAF bombers in the time you depict GT. Have no fear I have the old referecnes on the Uhu as well giving such high scores and praise. The stuff is still used today from the late 1960-1980's period and is accepted fact as much written in books has been copied to the net.....
- Thread starter
- #52
cheddar cheese
Major General
the lancaster kicks ass said:
Maybe not, but several people scored kills at night in regular P-38's...
Erich
the old Sage
doesn't matter the P-38 was a stop gap to the P-61 and the Lightning cannot even be considered a nf. the Bf 109G and Fw 190A were much more successful and they both are usually not considered in the night fighter realm
delcyros
Tech Sergeant
Just a question: Do we credtit the "best NF" technically or historically?
I would choose:
(historically) Mossie
(technically) Me-262 B1a/U
I would choose:
(historically) Mossie
(technically) Me-262 B1a/U
Erich
the old Sage
technically the Me 262 two seater was a flop. 1 kill only
the newer B-2 which did not enter production will be covered in immense detail in our book..........
the newer B-2 which did not enter production will be covered in immense detail in our book..........
Gemhorse
Senior Airman
Erich's absolutely correct....
As far as I'm concerned, all I've read indicates that the Ju-88G's were the next best thing to the superlative Mosquito as ''Best Nightfighter''...
In fact, running a close third, in my opinion, was the hard work done by the Do-217J N series, notably the ultimate model, Do-217N-2/R22......
What actually happened was when RAF Bomber Command launched 'Operation Gomorrah' on the evening 24 July 1943, the first major phase of Hamburg's demise, [it had already sustained 98 previous smaller attacks], and it was also when the British first dropped 'Window' [tin-foil strips used to disrupt German radar]... - In one stroke, the German 'Himmelbett' radar system, which was the basis of the AA/ Searchlight/ Nightfighter belt or barrier, known as the ''Kammhuber Line'', was thrown into total disarray, the Ground-controllers couldn't pass-on instructions to the beacon-orbiting Nightfighters to home them onto the 800-odd invading British bombers...- This made the 'Kammhuber Line' no longer a viable concept, and in it's place a defensive measure known as 'Wild Sau' [Wild Boar] was adopted using single-seat day fighters, using 'Mk.1 eyeballs'...all the light from searchlights, fires etc. helped them too...All this brought the greatest number of fighter opposition to bear, but one penalty emerged...a lack of airborne endurance, which rendered the fighters's advantage and flexibilty bluntened...
It was back in late May 1942 after the '1,000 Bomber Raid' on Cologne, that the Do-217 started to come into it's own as a Nightfighter, using some of it's bomb bay as fuel tanks....All this time, Ju-88's were in great demand for other tasks mostly, and they didn't come into this proper until later...
Originally, Bf-110's were evolved and used, as 1 Gruppe NJG1 was first formed back on 20 July 1940, but experience from offensive ops against British airfields using Do-17Z-3's and some Ju-88C-2's of 1/NJG 2, the Dornier's were progressively developed from Do-17Z's to Do-215's to Do-217's....They were well-armed and able to keep up with the bombers, and by August 1943, were getting phased-out by more Ju-88's coming on stream....the Dorniers filled the gap really well considering they were a modified 30,000lb bomber, max speed around 300 mph and carrying 4x 20mm MG 151's and 4x 7.9mm MG 17 forward-firing guns, and 4x 20mm MG 151 in ''schrage Musik'', quite deadly in fact.....
To answer Willow's question, the last flying Mosquito was a T III [RR299] which crashed in the UK in 1996, killing both it's crew....There are about 31 survivors worldwide, in various restorative states, but we have a chap down here in NZ who is building brand new fuselages and wings, working with a Canadian Group in restoration of Mosquitos, this chap is determined his remnant Mossie is going to be a flying one, and all us ardent Mossie fans are confident they will be flying again soon too....- I belong to a group here that are restoring the remains of two Mosquitos into one static display...I'll have photos, by and by........
I too have often wondered about the Arado Ar-234 'Blitz', an aircraft I've always liked and felt wasn't used to it's best potential, although time was running-out anyway....As a NF, it may have been a real handful, but Hitler was besotted with it being a bomber/recce model...I felt it may have been a better gun-platform than the Bf-262.....
As far as I'm concerned, all I've read indicates that the Ju-88G's were the next best thing to the superlative Mosquito as ''Best Nightfighter''...
In fact, running a close third, in my opinion, was the hard work done by the Do-217J N series, notably the ultimate model, Do-217N-2/R22......
What actually happened was when RAF Bomber Command launched 'Operation Gomorrah' on the evening 24 July 1943, the first major phase of Hamburg's demise, [it had already sustained 98 previous smaller attacks], and it was also when the British first dropped 'Window' [tin-foil strips used to disrupt German radar]... - In one stroke, the German 'Himmelbett' radar system, which was the basis of the AA/ Searchlight/ Nightfighter belt or barrier, known as the ''Kammhuber Line'', was thrown into total disarray, the Ground-controllers couldn't pass-on instructions to the beacon-orbiting Nightfighters to home them onto the 800-odd invading British bombers...- This made the 'Kammhuber Line' no longer a viable concept, and in it's place a defensive measure known as 'Wild Sau' [Wild Boar] was adopted using single-seat day fighters, using 'Mk.1 eyeballs'...all the light from searchlights, fires etc. helped them too...All this brought the greatest number of fighter opposition to bear, but one penalty emerged...a lack of airborne endurance, which rendered the fighters's advantage and flexibilty bluntened...
It was back in late May 1942 after the '1,000 Bomber Raid' on Cologne, that the Do-217 started to come into it's own as a Nightfighter, using some of it's bomb bay as fuel tanks....All this time, Ju-88's were in great demand for other tasks mostly, and they didn't come into this proper until later...
Originally, Bf-110's were evolved and used, as 1 Gruppe NJG1 was first formed back on 20 July 1940, but experience from offensive ops against British airfields using Do-17Z-3's and some Ju-88C-2's of 1/NJG 2, the Dornier's were progressively developed from Do-17Z's to Do-215's to Do-217's....They were well-armed and able to keep up with the bombers, and by August 1943, were getting phased-out by more Ju-88's coming on stream....the Dorniers filled the gap really well considering they were a modified 30,000lb bomber, max speed around 300 mph and carrying 4x 20mm MG 151's and 4x 7.9mm MG 17 forward-firing guns, and 4x 20mm MG 151 in ''schrage Musik'', quite deadly in fact.....
To answer Willow's question, the last flying Mosquito was a T III [RR299] which crashed in the UK in 1996, killing both it's crew....There are about 31 survivors worldwide, in various restorative states, but we have a chap down here in NZ who is building brand new fuselages and wings, working with a Canadian Group in restoration of Mosquitos, this chap is determined his remnant Mossie is going to be a flying one, and all us ardent Mossie fans are confident they will be flying again soon too....- I belong to a group here that are restoring the remains of two Mosquitos into one static display...I'll have photos, by and by........
I too have often wondered about the Arado Ar-234 'Blitz', an aircraft I've always liked and felt wasn't used to it's best potential, although time was running-out anyway....As a NF, it may have been a real handful, but Hitler was besotted with it being a bomber/recce model...I felt it may have been a better gun-platform than the Bf-262.....
Attachments
delcyros
Tech Sergeant
I´m looking forward to read this book, Erich! My statement underlines the idea that the future of NF belongs to jet driven planes. with this in mind, I stay for the Me-262 B1a/U. I thought that it should have more than one kill, but I might be wrong (Didn´t K.Welter claimed some 29 NF kills in Me-262? I did noticed that 29 is very suspect, but one, only? Intersting.). Historically the Mossie was exceptional, in every aspect.
Erich
the old Sage
I've got only 3 minutes and then out the door.
Kurt Welters jet claims are all suspect. He flew only the single seater as nearly all his pilots. Even though some 7 two seaters came into the unit the unit accepted radar operators quite late into the Kommando now a staffel and the single seater continued to chalk up Mossies. Only 1 kill is confirmed and reported for the unit and it is Red 12 by Herbert Altner in the two seater model. With the radar and the drop tanks the two seater was at least 50mph slower than the single seater mount.
Yes jet nf's were going to be the future had the war gone another year plus
E
Kurt Welters jet claims are all suspect. He flew only the single seater as nearly all his pilots. Even though some 7 two seaters came into the unit the unit accepted radar operators quite late into the Kommando now a staffel and the single seater continued to chalk up Mossies. Only 1 kill is confirmed and reported for the unit and it is Red 12 by Herbert Altner in the two seater model. With the radar and the drop tanks the two seater was at least 50mph slower than the single seater mount.
Yes jet nf's were going to be the future had the war gone another year plus
E
delcyros
Tech Sergeant
You are completely right, Erich. I took on reading some book that confirms it.
How about the Hurricane MKIIC Night Fighters... my guess is they were very successfull... It was one of the most efficient plane of ww2, being also a fighter-bomber it was preaty fast, had a preaty goo service ceiling, and it was heavely armed... My guess is that it did a good job...
