Erich
the old Sage
I think I get it...........P-61 is a dog and the Ju 88G-6 rules the skies !
Best Nightfighter of WW2 (Continued)
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Gemhorse
Senior Airman
In reading about the Pacific conflict, it appears the US Navy first used a TBF Avenger, equipped with radar and in concert with a pair of F6F Hellcats, as a Nightfighter team in late 1943...unfortunately, although they clobbered a G4M 'Betty' during their first sortie, the rear gunner of the Avenger gave what he thought was another 'Betty' a squirt, and shot-down the US Navy's first fighter ace and holder of the Medal of Honour, Commander Butch O'Hare.....
Early in 1944, during 'Operation Flintlock', the Navy also used their first F4U-2 Corsair and F6F-3N Hellcat radar Nightfighters, so this seems to be when the US first really got into nightfighting......
Early in 1944, during 'Operation Flintlock', the Navy also used their first F4U-2 Corsair and F6F-3N Hellcat radar Nightfighters, so this seems to be when the US first really got into nightfighting......
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Erich
the old Sage
Gem actually in 1943 in the Med the 12th AF nf units used borrowed Beus to hunt down what little German intruder-bomber traffic they could find. They were not very successful
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Anonymous
Guest
Erich said:
Hmm..
P-61B is 6 mph faster and has a 1600 foot higher service ceiling.
The P-61B's four forward firing Hispano's were equal to the Ju88G-6's four forward firing MG151/20's, having perhaps a little less HE kick but a lot more kinetic energy and twice the effective range.
The P-61B's four turret mounted .50's, which could fire across the entire upper hemisphere, were clearly superior to the two 60 degree upward firing 20mm's of the Ju88.
The P-61B had superior radar (much longer effective range), and the pilot had night-vision binoculars tied in with the gunsight - a huge advantage.
Just because the RAF never gave the P-61 a chance, prefering their own Mossie's for nightfigters, does not make the P-61 a dog. They never gave it a chance.
=S=
Lunatic
the lancaster kicks ass
Major General
- 19,937
- Dec 20, 2003
but at the same time we're not stupid, if we didn't want the P-61 it was for a very good reason.................
Nonskimmer
Captain
The British are many things. Stupid is not one of them. 
the lancaster kicks ass
Major General
- 19,937
- Dec 20, 2003
are we to assume you're trying to include Canadains in there non??
Nonskimmer
Captain
It's a good idea, but we're not British.
And I'll rip the head off of anyone who claims otherwise!
Sorry. A bit of my great-uncle coming out there.
And I'll rip the head off of anyone who claims otherwise!
Sorry. A bit of my great-uncle coming out there.
the lancaster kicks ass
Major General
- 19,937
- Dec 20, 2003
Glad to hear it........
Nonskimmer
Captain
God Save the Queen.
Concorde247
Senior Airman
Remember-Nightfighting isnt just down to the aircraft, its also down to the skills (or luck)of the pilot using it and their preference..
For example - Heinz Wolfgang Schnaufer - Germany's TOP-scoring nightfighter ace of WW2 with 121 victories.
The Aircraft he used was the Bf 110G-4 his last one was coded 3C+BA Wnr: 180560.
He preferred the Bf110 over all the different versions of Ju88 He219 - even though their performance was better in a lot of cases.
(info taken from Autobiography "Schnauffer -Ace of diamonds" by Peter hinchliffe
For example - Heinz Wolfgang Schnaufer - Germany's TOP-scoring nightfighter ace of WW2 with 121 victories.
The Aircraft he used was the Bf 110G-4 his last one was coded 3C+BA Wnr: 180560.
He preferred the Bf110 over all the different versions of Ju88 He219 - even though their performance was better in a lot of cases.
(info taken from Autobiography "Schnauffer -Ace of diamonds" by Peter hinchliffe
Erich
the old Sage
Greetings, yes it is a new day. Hopeful everyone had a blessed Easter.
RG:
The upper turret of the P-61 was used in the PTO only and was not used in the same manner as the fixed 60-80 degree Schrägwaffen installation.
9 out of 10 times the infa red binocs were not used in the ETO theater. Several reasons. The pilots were not indoctirined with the proper useage. the Binocs did not work and because of the first point the pilot would close to close to the German a/c for proper id and would have to swing out so he would not ramm the rear of the enemy a/c.
alos for the ETO and accoridng to the 422nd and 425th nfs icrofische the US AI was a faulty instrument on many occassions and noted in the diaries of the two US units "bent weapon" occured or just plain electrical failure where the crew would have to return to base.
For Schnaufer, he was totally unfamiliar with the He 219 and could not make a proper judgement call. His success to the Bf 110G-4 was not undlyuly alone in IV./NJG 1 as it was the most successful gruppe in NJG 1 and the most in all the Nachtjagd's. the Bf 110G-4 was fitting for it's time till late 1944, and nearly half of the exisitng Nachtjagd gruppen tired it's best to change over to the superior Ju 88G-6 but stalwarts in NJG 1 refused except to experiment with the larger Ju 88. Again it was only I./NJG 1 that used the He 219 and even then not all crews from the gruppe were happy with their mount.
RG:
The upper turret of the P-61 was used in the PTO only and was not used in the same manner as the fixed 60-80 degree Schrägwaffen installation.
9 out of 10 times the infa red binocs were not used in the ETO theater. Several reasons. The pilots were not indoctirined with the proper useage. the Binocs did not work and because of the first point the pilot would close to close to the German a/c for proper id and would have to swing out so he would not ramm the rear of the enemy a/c.
alos for the ETO and accoridng to the 422nd and 425th nfs icrofische the US AI was a faulty instrument on many occassions and noted in the diaries of the two US units "bent weapon" occured or just plain electrical failure where the crew would have to return to base.
For Schnaufer, he was totally unfamiliar with the He 219 and could not make a proper judgement call. His success to the Bf 110G-4 was not undlyuly alone in IV./NJG 1 as it was the most successful gruppe in NJG 1 and the most in all the Nachtjagd's. the Bf 110G-4 was fitting for it's time till late 1944, and nearly half of the exisitng Nachtjagd gruppen tired it's best to change over to the superior Ju 88G-6 but stalwarts in NJG 1 refused except to experiment with the larger Ju 88. Again it was only I./NJG 1 that used the He 219 and even then not all crews from the gruppe were happy with their mount.
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Anonymous
Guest
Erich said:
The topic does not specify "Best Nightfighter of the ETO".
The P-61B's were not deployed to Europe. The British had made their preference for the Mossie well known, and the USA had no real need for night fighters in that theater.
The night vision binocs allowed identification at a distance, they included variable maginfication up to 5.8x. The P-61A crews in the ETO were never trained to use them, so they were not effective in that theater. But there is no reason to believe that properly trained pilots would have had a problem identifying German aircraft from 2000 feet or more.
Of course the upper turret was not used in the same way as the Schrägwaffen installation - it was a turret not a fixed installation. But it certainly was superior for underneath attacks.
I agree, the APG-1 gun-laying radar system didn't work very well. But this only prevented the P-61 from being totally devastating as a night fighter. Had the kinks been worked out of this system, enemy nightfighters would not have stood a chance against the P-61.
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Lunatic
A
Anonymous
Guest
the lancaster kicks ass said:
The British military suffered from "not invented here" syndrome as badly or worse than any other military in the world. They were satisfied with the Mossie, so that was that.
Look at what they did the the P-38. First they insist the planes they evaluate be equiped with two engines that both rotate the same direction, then they dismiss it as having poor handling characteristics - DUH!
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Lunatic
the lancaster kicks ass
Major General
- 19,937
- Dec 20, 2003
dude we tested the P-38E i believe, and that sucked anyway!!!
Erich
the old Sage
C'mon RG I have stated many times I was a former member of the US night figher's association before it was broken up. I know some of the ETO vets of the 422nd and 425th nfs personally and have interviewed them at length my files on the ETO alone are some 4 inches thick. Will point out simply the ETO crews were trained in the useage of night binocs and yes the B's were used. have also in the past gave nightly reports with insertion of P-61 a/c numerations and the variant. Plain and simple there were not enough P-61's to go around, the P-61 was exhausted until service crews had to look for other means to replace needed parts struck by action/weather, crashes, etc....
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Anonymous
Guest
Erich said:
The great majority of P-61's went to the PTO. Those that served in the ETO did very little "night fighter" duty, first they did V1 interception duty and then they mostly did night interdition missions. Very few P-61's were delivered to the ETO after Spring 1944, except as replacements. Most (if not all) of the B's went to the PTO. The A's were retrofitted with the night vision binoc's, but they were not refitted with the improved SCR-720C A/I radar which would have required structural modifications.
All the info I can find on the subject indicates that both the 422nd and 425th NFG's were equiped with P-61A's in May 1944. I've been unable to locate a photo of a single P-61B in the ETO, or any source that specifically says they were deployed there.
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Lunatic
Erich
the old Sage
RG I knew the 425th nfs commander Leon "Gilly" Lewis and have his full on interview, this was done some 8 years ago. B's were given to the unit as well as nigh binocs which hardly a crew used in action. there are pics of the 414th nfs with B's on the net. the unit alhtough flew most ops seperately had a short term with the 422nd. B's were full on inaction during the greatest time of night fighting and scoring for the ETO P-61 units during the Ardenne battles.
Local friend and pilot with 2 kills from the 425th nfs , Jack Slayton had 106 missions. 8/10ths of these were on night fighter-intruder patrols.
E I have more if your interested....
Local friend and pilot with 2 kills from the 425th nfs , Jack Slayton had 106 missions. 8/10ths of these were on night fighter-intruder patrols.
E I have more if your interested....
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Anonymous
Guest
Erich said:
Well, lets look at it,
425th P-61's: (http://www.geocities.com/mep1100/425NFS.html)
Code:
Name Serial No. Type
Unknown 44-5537 P-61 A-5
Unknown 44-5539 P-61 A-5
Unknown 44-5542 P-61 A-5
Unknown 44-5545 P-61 A-5
Unknown 44-5546 P-61 A-5
Unknown 44-5549 P-61 A-5
Junkin' Judy 44-5550 P-61 A-5
Unknown 44-5560 P-61 A-5
Unknown 44-5565 P-61 A-5
Double Trouble 44-5566 P-61 A-10
Unknown 44-5568 P-61 A-10
Tabitha 44-5569 P-61 A-10
Daisy Mae 44-5570 P-61 A-10
Mah Ideel 44-5571 P-61 A-10
Unknown 44-5574 P-61 A-10
Sleepy Time Gal 44-5576 P-61 A-10
Unknown 44-5578 P-61 A-10
Unknown 44-5579 P-61 A-10
Wabash Cannonball IV 44-5580 P-61 A-10
Little Nan 44-5581 P-61 A-10
Two O'Clock Jump 44-5582 P-61 A-10
Dangerous Dan 44-5583 P-61 A-10
Unknown 44-5584 P-61 A-10
Plenty Peed-Off Patootie III 44-5585 P-61 A-10
Unknown 44-5587(?) XP-61D
Unknown 44-5588 P-61 A-10
Unknown 44-5589 P-61 A-10
Unknown 42-39395 P-61 A-10
Unknown 42-39397 P-61 A-10
Norma Dea Unknown P-61 ?
IITYWYBdd Unknown P-61 ?
Fearless Fosdic Unknown P-61 ?
Little Audrey Unknown P-61 ? (P-61A)
Midnight Menace Unknown P-61 ? (P-61A)
The Creep Unknown P-61 ?Of 35 P-61's assigned to the 425th, one is an XP-61D (service test?), 28 were definitely P-61A variants, and 6 are listed as unknown. Of those six, from photos it is clear that the Little Audrey and Midnight Menace were both P-61A's. This leaves just 4 potential P-61B's in the squardon. Thus far I have seen no evidence, or photo evidence of any P-61B's being used in Europe, but if you have some, I'm open to any new information.
As I said before, the P-61A's were retrofitted with night vision binoculars. However, they were not retrofitted with the improved radar system or turret of the P-61B. All P-61A's either had the turret removed or locked to fire forward under pilot control. I suspect P-61B's were not deployed to Europe because the P-61A's were sufficient for night interdiction missions, and the logistics issues were not worth the effort of supporting both types in that theater.
The 414th NFG served in the central Pacific, they arrived on Iwo Jima on July 7th, 1945. So they most likely did fly P-61B's, and I never said they didn't serve in the PTO. Unless you can find photo's or other evidence that show they had P-61B's in the ETO, the existance of photo's of 414 NFG P-61B's does not "prove" anything.
=S=
Lunatic
GermansRGeniuses
Tech Sergeant
the lancaster kicks ass said:
You tested the "Castrated Lightning..."
No turbo-chargers = bad Allisons.
