Best Or Most Competent WWII Admiral - By Nationality

[parsifal]

The BoA was 'won' ( if that is the right word) by air power, the American economy gearing to produce Liberty ships at the rate only you could,the long range patrols with Catalina's. Sunderland's etc, better convey systems and better naval protection

Hi john

I realize you are summarizing, but i have to say the victory in the Atlantic (and yes, its a victor because allied losses were reduced to manageable proportions whilst german U-Boat losses became prohibitive) was far more complex than that.

At the beginning of the war, there was a chronic shortage of escorts...the so called escort famine. by the beginning of 1942, this was largely solved, yet losses continued to dangerously high. Tactics and t5raining were found to be deficient, and team work in the escort groups was poor. These were addressed throughout 1942-3, to the extent that the level of teamwork had reached extraordinary levels by mid 1943.

Technology in weapons, and detection gear increased the lethality of the escorts markedly. Weapons like Hedgehog, mousetrap, the deep diving heavy DC throwers and charges, improvements SONAR gear and the fitting of HF/DF and radars were all of immense help. By 1945 the allies were beginning to use airborne MAD which had great potential.

The statisitcal mathematics applied to the convoys ensured that convoy sizes were optimized. The breaking of the U-Boat Codes was perhaps the greatest advantage. The introduction of CVEs enmasse, the formation of Hunter Killer Groups, use of VLR patrols all contributed greatly to the allied victories. The Germans also introduced new technologies, to the extent that if the level of advantage derived was merely linked to new technology, the germans probably would have had greater advatage at wars end, than they enjoyed at the beginning. But the allied advantage was only partly affected by new technologies. It was as much about application of those new technologies....the training, tactics and technique, that tipped the balance, as it was about the technology. Similarly, US merchant shipping production was critical to victory, yet, that alone did not win the war. If the U-Boats had proceeded unchecked even US production would not have kept pace with losses. .

 

[Readie]

Hi john

I realize you are summarizing, but i have to say the victory in the Atlantic (and yes, its a victor because allied losses were reduced to manageable proportions whilst german U-Boat losses became prohibitive) was far more complex than that.

At the beginning of the war, there was a chronic shortage of escorts...the so called escort famine. by the beginning of 1942, this was largely solved, yet losses continued to dangerously high. Tactics and t5raining were found to be deficient, and team work in the escort groups was poor. These were addressed throughout 1942-3, to the extent that the level of teamwork had reached extraordinary levels by mid 1943.

Technology in weapons, and detection gear increased the lethality of the escorts markedly. Weapons like Hedgehog, mousetrap, the deep diving heavy DC throwers and charges, improvements SONAR gear and the fitting of HF/DF and radars were all of immense help. By 1945 the allies were beginning to use airborne MAD which had great potential.

The statisitcal mathematics applied to the convoys ensured that convoy sizes were optimized. The breaking of the U-Boat Codes was perhaps the greatest advantage. The introduction of CVEs enmasse, the formation of Hunter Killer Groups, use of VLR patrols all contributed greatly to the allied victories. The Germans also introduced new technologies, to the extent that if the level of advantage derived was merely linked to new technology, the germans probably would have had greater advatage at wars end, than they enjoyed at the beginning. But the allied advantage was only partly affected by new technologies. It was as much about application of those new technologies....the training, tactics and technique, that tipped the balance, as it was about the technology. Similarly, US merchant shipping production was critical to victory, yet, that alone did not win the war. If the U-Boats had proceeded unchecked even US production would not have kept pace with losses. .

Hi Glen,
My summary was brief ( to say the least) and I realise that the BoA deserves a more thorough analysis.
Perhaps it would be fair to say that victory was made up of lots of little victories. The U boats could have so easily won, and if Hitler had not been mad enough to attack everywhere at the same time and just concentrated on the BoA and taking Britain out of WW2 the Nazi's may well have prevailed.
The U boat and german tactics lessons from WW1 were not really learnt by the allies were they?
Regards
John

 

[fastmongrel]

The U boat and german tactics lessons from WW1 were not really learnt by the allies were they?
Regards
John

The lessons were learnt and tactics were adopted but 20 financially parsimonious years is a long time for what was a new and unfashionable branch to survive. The RN had the best vessels, weapons and tactics for convoy escort just not enough of anything particulary the Merchant Aircraft Carriers they had planned for. Also the defeat of France and the U Boats gaining access to Atlantic ports threw a huge spanner in the works, no one probably not even Hitler thought the French would fall so comprehensively. That doesnt exonerate the Admiralty but the RN was trying to get a quart out of a pint pot in the late 1930s and with hindsight fewer shiny battlewagons and more escorts was the way to go.

 

[Readie]

The lessons were learnt and tactics were adopted but 20 financially parsimonious years is a long time for what was a new and unfashionable branch to survive. The RN had the best vessels, weapons and tactics for convoy escort just not enough of anything particulary the Merchant Aircraft Carriers they had planned for. Also the defeat of France and the U Boats gaining access to Atlantic ports threw a huge spanner in the works, no one probably not even Hitler thought the French would fall so comprehensively. That doesnt exonerate the Admiralty but the RN was trying to get a quart out of a pint pot in the late 1930s and with hindsight fewer shiny battlewagons and more escorts was the way to go.

To be fair to the RN it was the Politicians that held the purse strings not the Admiralty.
There were lots of parsimonious decisions made in the inter war depression years that would be regretted in WW2. But, as with so many things that is said with hindsight.
What do you do when the country is on its knees? Spin forward to 2012 and we have cuts galore. I wonder what will be regretted now?
Hey ho
Cheers
John

 

[fastmongrel]

Spin forward to 2012 and we have cuts galore. I wonder what will be regretted now?
Hey ho
Cheers
John

Lets cut the Inland Revenue all those nice big multinationals wont dodge paying their taxes. Lets cut the Probation Service all those nice people we just let out of our privatised prisons wont go straight back to crime will they. Lets cut Child Protection Services all those nice Paedophiles wont......Oh Crap

 

[Readie]

Lets cut the Inland Revenue all those nice big multinationals wont dodge paying their taxes. Lets cut the Probation Service all those nice people we just let out of our privatised prisons wont go straight back to crime will they. Lets cut Child Protection Services all those nice Paedophiles wont......Oh Crap

lets cut the armed forces too....no one will attack us will they...

I despair

John

 

[cherry blossom]

I am slightly surprised that Bertam Ramsay Bertram Ramsay - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia hasn't received a mention so far. He seems to have done his various jobs relatively well.

 

[vinnye]

One thing that occurred to me about the Battle of the Atlantic is that it seems to mirror the air war in Europe. At the start the KM had the advantage and used this to gain more experience and develop tactics.
Later on the Allies began to make break throughs that turned the tables - capturing an Enigma machine and developing the code breaking machine etc. This together with advances in radar and the Hedgehog etc meant that U boats were being detected and destroyed far more regularly. This meant that the KM was losing its best submariners and the Allies gaining experience and expertise. At the end of the Air War - there was limited resources available to the LW and hoardes of Allied fighters in the air.

 

[syscom3]

Daniel E. Barbey.

One of the finest practitioners of amphibious warfare.

""Uncle Dan", as he was known, planned and conducted 56 amphibious operations, landing more than one million Australian and American soldiers and marines."

 

[kettbo]

While Doenitz had the right idea of Wolfpacks, coordiated attacks etc....he failed
1..Did not clue into the fact his codes were being read...
2. Ever hear of an American troopship sunk? Troop convoy engaged? See #1.
3. U-5xx to base: "Nothing out here but empty ocean" See #1, convoys routed away from the wolfpacks

Lost the Battle of the Atlantic, Tanks, planes, plane assemblies, trains, Marsden mat, FUEL, more fuel, bombs, ammo, all manner of equipment in sufficient quantity. Losing the Battle of the Atlantic cost the Germans the War

 

[GrauGeist]

I'd say Chester Nimitz And Erich Raeder get my vote

 

[Milosh]

All this talk about the RN in the BoA and no word about the RCN. tut tut.

The most important measure of its success was the safe passage during the war of over 25,000 merchant ships under Canadian escort. These cargo vessels delivered nearly 165 million tons of supplies to Britain and to the Allied forces that liberated Europe.

 

[fastmongrel]

All this talk about the RN in the BoA and no word about the RCN. tut tut.

The most important measure of its success was the safe passage during the war of over 25,000 merchant ships under Canadian escort. These cargo vessels delivered nearly 165 million tons of supplies to Britain and to the Allied forces that liberated Europe.

We are talking about Admirals not navies. I dont know enough about the RCN to know wether there was a Canadian who reached flag rank whilst exclusively serving under a Canadian Ensign. Western Approaches was controlled from Liverpool by the RN it didnt matter what flag the ships flew they were controlled by the Admiral based at Derby House
Liverpool War Museum, Western Approaches, Battle of the Atlantic, Work War II

 

[parsifal]

I am slightly surprised that Bertam Ramsay Bertram Ramsay - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia hasn't received a mention so far. He seems to have done his various jobs relatively well.

Hi Cherry Blossom

Thanksd for posting a vote. Updating the running total so as to include your vote, the voting tally changes to the following

USN: Nimitz (2), Scott, Mitscher, Turner, Spruance, Lee
IJN: Tanaka, Ozawa(2) Yamaguchi , Tsukuhara
RN Cunningham (2), Horton (3), Somerville, Vian, Ramsay(2), Fraser, Noble
KM Donitz (2), Raeder, Marschall

 

[parsifal]

Daniel E. Barbey.

One of the finest practitioners of amphibious warfare.

""Uncle Dan", as he was known, planned and conducted 56 amphibious operations, landing more than one million Australian and American soldiers and marines."

Thanks sys for posting a vote, unusual choice, but i like it.

Factoring in your vote to the running sheet makes the folowing changes to the list

USN: Nimitz (2), Scott, Mitscher, Turner, Spruance, Lee, Barbey
IJN: Tanaka, Ozawa(2) Yamaguchi , Tsukuhara
RN Cunningham (2), Horton (3), Somerville, Vian, Ramsay(2), Fraser, Noble
KM Donitz (2), Raeder, Marschall

 

[parsifal]

I'd say Chester Nimitz And Erich Raeder get my vote

Thanks GG. Because both these guys have been voted for previously, I can only accept your "primary vote", according to the system I am using. Ive assumed that you want Nimitz as as your primary vote. Let me know if you would prefer raeder as your primary vote.

The list is now as follows


USN: Nimitz (3), Scott, Mitscher, Turner, Spruance, Lee, Barbey
IJN: Tanaka, Ozawa(2) Yamaguchi , Tsukuhara
RN Cunningham (2), Horton (3), Somerville, Vian, Ramsay(2), Fraser, Noble
KM Donitz (2), Raeder, Marschall

Poll leaders are now tied for equal first place....Horton and Nimitz. Its gettingt intersting I think

 

[parsifal]

Guys I should say that you can vote for more than one nationality if you want, But only one vote counts, except if the second choice has not previously been nominated

 

[Milosh]

We are talking about Admirals not navies. I dont know enough about the RCN to know wether there was a Canadian who reached flag rank whilst exclusively serving under a Canadian Ensign. Western Approaches was controlled from Liverpool by the RN it didnt matter what flag the ships flew they were controlled by the Admiral based at Derby House
Liverpool War Museum, Western Approaches, Battle of the Atlantic, Work War II

Here you go: Rear Admiral Leonard Warren Murray, CB, CBE (22 June 1896 – 25 November 1971) was an officer of the Royal Canadian Navy who played a significant role in the Battle of the Atlantic. He commanded the Newfoundland Escort Force from 1941–1943, and from 1943 to the end of the war was Commander-in-Chief, Canadian Northwest Atlantic.

 

[GrauGeist]

Thanks GG. Because both these guys have been voted for previously, I can only accept your "primary vote", according to the system I am using. Ive assumed that you want Nimitz as as your primary vote. Let me know if you would prefer raeder as your primary vote.

The list is now as follows


USN: Nimitz (3), Scott, Mitscher, Turner, Spruance, Lee, Barbey
IJN: Tanaka, Ozawa(2) Yamaguchi , Tsukuhara
RN Cunningham (2), Horton (3), Somerville, Vian, Ramsay(2), Fraser, Noble
KM Donitz (2), Raeder, Marschall

Poll leaders are now tied for equal first place....Horton and Nimitz. Its gettingt intersting I think

My apologies, I thought it was for top Admiral of thier respective navies!

So my vote will remain as Admiral Nimitz!

(Note to self: read the thread heading twice when I'm on here late at night!)

 

[parsifal]

Here you go: Rear Admiral Leonard Warren Murray, CB, CBE (22 June 1896 – 25 November 1971) was an officer of the Royal Canadian Navy who played a significant role in the Battle of the Atlantic. He commanded the Newfoundland Escort Force from 1941–1943, and from 1943 to the end of the war was Commander-in-Chief, Canadian Northwest Atlantic.

Hi Milosh

Why not vote and include this guy as your "honourable mention" it would be very cool to have a dominion Admiral in the nominations.