pbfoot
1st Lieutenant
i think maybe 7.3 min to 25
Best Tank Killer of WW2 continued
- Thread starter Erich
- Start date
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Sorry the Kingcobra was just a feeble attempt to upgrade the Airacobra.
Nonskimmer
Captain
Wasn't that built at the request of the Russians, with their input?
A
Anonymous
Guest
DerAdlerIstGelandet said:
Well, remember the Airacobra was downgraded by removing the supercharging. Other than that, it was not that bad a plane. The Kingcobra got that supercharging back.
I don't know if the KingCobra was any good or not. Stalin evidently thought rather highly of it.
=S=
Lunatic
KraziKanuK
Banned
- 792
- Jan 26, 2005
RG_Lunatic said:
The P-39 did not loose its supercharger. What it did loose was its TURBOcharger. All Allison V-170s had a single stage supercharger. The P-63 had an Allison with a 2 stage supercharger.
The P-63 was on an equal performance footing as the P-51, except for range.
A
Anonymous
Guest
KraziKanuK said:
Ummm that is loosing (some of its) supercharging. I didn't realize it was originally supposed to have a turbo unit.
Okay fine but if you put it that way then the P-63 was upgraded to a still inferior aircraft of the time. Plus who really wanted to sit on the drive shaft for the propellers? The vibrations would tickle your prostate a bit too much! 
pbfoot
1st Lieutenant
but that hunk of iron behind you would sure give you a little feeling of security
the lancaster kicks ass
Major General
- 19,937
- Dec 20, 2003
yes, behind you, where it's even more vaunurable.........
pbfoot
1st Lieutenant
if i was the pilot the engine would certainly take 2nd place over my butt
I just dont think it was that great of an aircraft.
the lancaster kicks ass
Major General
- 19,937
- Dec 20, 2003
becasue it wasn't...........
A
Anonymous
Guest
Probably not, but I have not seen enough on the P-63's wartime performance to have any idea. I suspect it would have been an excellent bomber killer but other than that pretty medocre.
=S=
Luantic
=S=
Luantic
Thats pretty much because the only ones who had any faith in it and used it extensivly were the Russians.
A
Anonymous
Guest
DerAdlerIstGelandet said:
The Russian's didn't really use the P-63 in WWII. Stalin was holding them in reserve to intercept Allied bombers in the war he expected to pursue after the German's were defeated. It was the only plane in his arsonnel that could intercept bombers at altitude.
the lancaster kicks ass
Major General
- 19,937
- Dec 20, 2003
Really?? not even the BI-1??
RG_Lunatic said:
I may be wrong but that is still more then anybody else. Other nations including the US knew that it was outclassed.
lesofprimus
Brigadier General
Hs 129 B-2/R4:
First developed in 1939 as tank-buster the Hs 129 flew mainly at the Russian front to counter the endless columns of Russian armor.
The normal configuration for the Hs 129 was one 30mm-, two 20mm Cannons plus two 7.9mm MGs and two 50kg Bombs. The B-2/R4 however replaced the 30mm Cannon with one 75mm PaK. The Henschel 129 (the most numerous version being the B-2) entered combat in may 1942, and served mainly on the eastern front with great efficiency, its heavy armament of two 7.92 machine guns, two 20mm cannons, bombs, and a 30mm MK 101 or 103 cannon in a ventral gondola wreaking havoc among the soviet armoured regiments. The Rumanian Air Force made an extensive use of Hs 129s, too, eventually turning them against the Germans after the 23 august 1944 armistice. The ultimate version, Hs 129 B-3 – armed with a heavy 75mm antitank gun, entered service too late to be of any help (the fact if it was ever used in combat being questioned by some authors).
4.(Pz)/SchG 1
This independent Staffel was formed on 13 January 1942 at Dugino on the central sector of the Eastern Front as a component of II./SchG 1 with Bf 109Es provided by the disbanded II (Schlacht)/LG 2. It flew out of Dugino and Rzhev under VIII. Fliegerkorps until early April. The available literature indicates that it received 16 Hs 129B-1s by 28 March, presumably at Lippstadt, and then left for the Crimea, arriving on 6 May.
It commenced operations on 7 May from Grammatikovo/Crimea with some 15 Hs 129s as part of of II. Gruppe, although the rest of the Gruppe was still enroute. Over the next several days 4. Staffel attacked various ground targets, shot down an I-16 fighter and destroyed an estimated 40 other aircraft during a low-level strafing attack on an enemy airfield in Eastern Crimea. In mid-May the Staffel moved north to Konstantinovka with the rest of II. Gruppe and took part in the heavy fighting against Soveit incursions in the Barvenkovo-Izyum-Chuguyev-Kupanysk sector to the south and southeast of Kharkov. Ordered to Kharkov-Rogan in early June for outfitting with the new underbelly MK 101 30mm cannon installation, and took these armor-piercing weapons into action against Soviet tanks retreating from east of Kharkov towards Voronezh on the Don River. Apparently operated without loss until July 1942, when a Hs 129 belonging to 4. Staffelwas reported lost in the Kobyla-Sterya area on July 6th and another Hs 129 was shot down by Russian fighters at Voronezh two days later. No information has come to light about the Staffel's operations or whereabouts from 8 July to mid-December 1942.
Following the Soviet counter-offensive at Stalingrad the Staffel was deployed along the Chir front west of Stalingrad. On 22 December, while the rest of II. Gruppe pulled back to Voroshilovgrad, 4. (Pz) remained forward at Tatsinskaya until Russian tanks approached the airfield two weeks later and then withdrew to Stalino. Two Hs 129s were reportedly lost in action on 27 and 28 December. On 5 January 1943 another Hs 129B-1 crashed, killing the Staka, Oblt. Eduard Kent. After withdrawing to Stalino it was subsequently re-equipped with the new Hs 129B-2, which was just then coming off the production line, and ordered to transfer to Poltava on 14 March and then to Stalino-North during the first half of April. By the beginning of May, the Staffel was flying in support of hard-pressed German ground forces on the Taman Peninsula, southwest of Rostov, losing two Hs 129B-2s near Krymskaya on 8 and 13 May.
In June the Staffel was sent back to Germany, possibly to have all or a number of its B-2s fitted with the new 30mm MK 103 armor-piercing cannon, and then returned and was stationed at Varvarovka for the upcoming Operation "Zitadelle". Losses were heavy in July with seven Hs 129B-2s falling to Soviet AA fire and at least three more heavily damaged between the 12th and 30th. Three pilots were killed and two missing in these engagements. Meanwhile the Staffel had been ordered from Varvarovka to Orel-West around 15 July to bolster the defense against the Soviet counter-attack towards Orel that commenced 13 July. As Soviet forces drove the Germans westward, 4. (Pz) pulled back to Konotop during the first half of August and then moved to Poltava at the end of August. A Hs 129B-2 was destroyed on the ground at Zaporozhye-East during a Soviet low-level air attack on September 5th and another five were lost over the course of the month as the Staffel retreated through the central Ukraine. It was at Kiev-Post Volinski on 21 September, at Askania Nova (123 km WSW of Melitopol) on 30 September, and on 6 October it was ordered to transfer to Orsha on the central sector of the Eastern Front, but there is no evidence that this was carried out. On or about 18 October, it was renamed 10.(Pz)/SG 9.
II./SchG 1
The II. Gruppe was raised at Lippstadt on 13 January 1942 with 5., and 6. Staffeln equipped with Hs 129B-1s and 7. Staffel with Hs 123As, the latter unit taking over the aircraft of 8. Staffel in April. After formation and workup was completed by the end of April, it was ordered to southern Russia for assignment with Luftflotte 4.
The first combat loss occured on May 9th when a Hs 129B-1 was shot down by Soviet AA fire, possibly over the eastern Crimea. The pilot, Hptm. Max Eck, was listed as missing. In mid-May, while based at Konstantinovka, operations centered on the Izyum Salient and around Stalino. It was there that three Hs 129B-1s were shot down by Russian AA fire on 23 May, a sever blow at this relatively early stage of the war for this newly formed unit.
The main effort shifted to the Kursk area and east towards Voronezh at the end of June and into the first half of July. The Gruppe was temporarily split up during this period with the Staffeln operating independently from Volchansk, Kharkov, Shatalovka, Orel, and Kursk on the central sector of the front. While flying from these airfields 6. Staffel lost two Hs 129B-1s to AA fire on 28 June and three Hs 123As from 7. Staffel failed to return from the Shchigry area northeast of Kursk on 29 June.
From mid-July the Gruppe concentrated on supporting the drive to Stalingrad, moving to Tatsinskaya. Frolov, and Tusov by mid-August. Toward the end of the month 5. Staffel was sent back to Orel and temporarily attached to JG 51. A strength return for 20 September reported a total of 46 Hs 129s and Hs 123s on hand with 28 serviceable. Losses that autumn in the Stalingrad area were very light. Lt. Josef Menapace, Staffelkapitän of 7. Staffel was wounded on 13 September when his Hs 123 was shot up by a Soviet fighter over Stalingrad, and 6. Staffel reported Hs 129 losses on both the 2nd and 11th of November. 7. Staffel received some Bf 109Es during the summer to supplement their stock of Hs 123As.
Meanwhile 5. Staffel was transferred to Jesau, in East Prussia, in October to rest and refit with Hs 129B-2s. It departed for North Africa on 5 November and arrived at Tunis-El Aounina on 29 November after being delayed enroute by bad weather. It flew its first combat mission the next day against British tanks and vehicle columns near Tebourba, followed by numerous successful missions to the end of the month. It was renamed 8.(Pz)/SchG 2 in January 1943. A new 5. Staffel for SchG 1 was formed a few weeks later in Germany with Fw 190s.
The Soviet counter-offensive at Stalingrad on 19 November brought a rapid turn of events. After moving from Millerovo to Frolov and Oblivskaya by November 26th, the Gruppe began a maximum effort around Stalingrad at the cost of at least eight Hs 129Bs, Hs 123As and Bf 109Es lost in ground attack missions or blown up to prevent capture by the on-coming Russians. From around December 6th, the Gruppenstab and 6. Staffel were operating from Rossosh, just west of the Don River and to the northeast of Kharkov, shooting up Russian tanks that were driving deep into the Romanian Third and Italian Eighth Armies, while 7. Staffel appears to have remained in the Stalingrad area with its Hs 123s, flying from Morosovskaya. By the 22nd of December, what was left of II./SchG 1 had pulled back to Voroshilovgrad.
In a summary of the year's operations, II. Gruppe reported flying a total of 3128 Hs 129 sorties, 1532 Hs 123 sorties, and 1938 Bf 109 sorties since formation, claimed 107 aircraft shot down or destroyed, while losing 20 Hs 129s, 16 Bf 109s, and 5 Hs 123s due to enemy action.
While operating from Voroshilovgrad II. Gruppe claimed 13 tanks destroyed. In mid-January 1943 the surviving personnel left for Deblin-Irena in Poland to rest and convert to the Fw 190, except for 7. Staffel which continued to fly the Hs 123. A few Hs 129s and crews from the other Staffeln were also left behind in South Russia. The Gruppenkommandeur, Hptm. Frank Neubert, was shot down and wounded by Soviet AA fire on 30 January near Skurbiy.
Based at Nikolayev-East from 6 February, the conversion to Fw 190A-5s was completed by the first week in March. The Gruppe was then transferred to Pavlograd in the east-central part of the Ukraine for a month of training and workups before moving back to the front in mid-April.
8.(Pz)/SchG 1
8./SchG 1 was renamed from 10.(Sch)/LG 2 on 13 January 1942 at Dugino in central Russia, where it continued to operate under VIII. Fliegerkorps until the beginning of April. It then returned to Germany, disbanded, and was then immediately reestablished with Bf 109E-7s. The Staffel's Hs 123s biplanes were turned over to 7. Staffel. Although 8. (Pz) was organizationally a component of I. Gruppe from 13 January 1942 until the Geschwader's reorganization in January-February 1943, it is carried separately here because of its conversion to the Hs 129 in January-February 1943 and redesignation as a PanzerjŠgerstaffel.
It was transferred to the southeastern part of the Ukraine via Lvov, Poland on May 5th and flew support missions in the fighting around the Izyum Salient in May, but didn't report any losses until July 26th, when a Bf 109E-7 returned to Morosovskaya-West badly damaged after being shot up by a Russian fighter. It remained active in the Stalingrad area with bases at Tusov in September and Morosovskaya in early December, but by mid-December was withdrawn for rest and conversion to the Hs 129, probably in Germany.
It was then redesignated as 8.(Pz)/SchG 1 and was semi-independent. It returned to southern Russia by the end of February and reported some training crashes at Zaparozhye-East on 22 February and at Kharkov on 21 March. At the beginning of April it was sent to the North Caucasus to support operations in the Kuban bridgehead, with bases at Kerch and Anapa. Very heavy losses were suffered in the bitter fighting over the beleaguered Kuban. A Hs 129B-2 went down to AA fire on April 5th, two more were lost in the Krymskaya-Bakanskaya area on 16 April; another on 3 May; two fell to AA fire on May 5th; two more on May 27th and the last was lost to Russian AA fire and fighters on 29 May.
The survivors were withdrawn to Zaporozhye in the southern Ukraine in early June to rest, refit, and re-equip. On 2 July, and now back to strength, 8. (Pz) was transferred to Mikoyanovka, 8 kilometers southwest of Belgorod, for Operation "Zitadelle", the German offensive against the Kursk salient. Losses were again heavy as the Staffel pounded Soviet armor east of Kursk. As the Germans were forced over to the defensive at the height of the battle, the Staffel was ordered to Orel-West around 15 July to help blunt the powerful Soviet counter-attack toward Orel that had begun two days before. By the end of July it was based at Karachev, about 75 kilometers west-northwest of Orel, probably at Konotop during August and then moved to Poltava around the beginning of September. From there the Staffel was committed in the fierce rear guard fighting between Kharkov and Kiev before transferring on 21 September to Zaporozhye. After losing five Hs 129B-2s over the course of the month, the next move was to Kiev on or about 30 September as the Soviet spearheads approached Zaporozhye. While based at Kiev 8. (Pz) was renamed 11.(Pz)/SG 9 in October 1943.
First developed in 1939 as tank-buster the Hs 129 flew mainly at the Russian front to counter the endless columns of Russian armor.
The normal configuration for the Hs 129 was one 30mm-, two 20mm Cannons plus two 7.9mm MGs and two 50kg Bombs. The B-2/R4 however replaced the 30mm Cannon with one 75mm PaK. The Henschel 129 (the most numerous version being the B-2) entered combat in may 1942, and served mainly on the eastern front with great efficiency, its heavy armament of two 7.92 machine guns, two 20mm cannons, bombs, and a 30mm MK 101 or 103 cannon in a ventral gondola wreaking havoc among the soviet armoured regiments. The Rumanian Air Force made an extensive use of Hs 129s, too, eventually turning them against the Germans after the 23 august 1944 armistice. The ultimate version, Hs 129 B-3 – armed with a heavy 75mm antitank gun, entered service too late to be of any help (the fact if it was ever used in combat being questioned by some authors).
4.(Pz)/SchG 1
This independent Staffel was formed on 13 January 1942 at Dugino on the central sector of the Eastern Front as a component of II./SchG 1 with Bf 109Es provided by the disbanded II (Schlacht)/LG 2. It flew out of Dugino and Rzhev under VIII. Fliegerkorps until early April. The available literature indicates that it received 16 Hs 129B-1s by 28 March, presumably at Lippstadt, and then left for the Crimea, arriving on 6 May.
It commenced operations on 7 May from Grammatikovo/Crimea with some 15 Hs 129s as part of of II. Gruppe, although the rest of the Gruppe was still enroute. Over the next several days 4. Staffel attacked various ground targets, shot down an I-16 fighter and destroyed an estimated 40 other aircraft during a low-level strafing attack on an enemy airfield in Eastern Crimea. In mid-May the Staffel moved north to Konstantinovka with the rest of II. Gruppe and took part in the heavy fighting against Soveit incursions in the Barvenkovo-Izyum-Chuguyev-Kupanysk sector to the south and southeast of Kharkov. Ordered to Kharkov-Rogan in early June for outfitting with the new underbelly MK 101 30mm cannon installation, and took these armor-piercing weapons into action against Soviet tanks retreating from east of Kharkov towards Voronezh on the Don River. Apparently operated without loss until July 1942, when a Hs 129 belonging to 4. Staffelwas reported lost in the Kobyla-Sterya area on July 6th and another Hs 129 was shot down by Russian fighters at Voronezh two days later. No information has come to light about the Staffel's operations or whereabouts from 8 July to mid-December 1942.
Following the Soviet counter-offensive at Stalingrad the Staffel was deployed along the Chir front west of Stalingrad. On 22 December, while the rest of II. Gruppe pulled back to Voroshilovgrad, 4. (Pz) remained forward at Tatsinskaya until Russian tanks approached the airfield two weeks later and then withdrew to Stalino. Two Hs 129s were reportedly lost in action on 27 and 28 December. On 5 January 1943 another Hs 129B-1 crashed, killing the Staka, Oblt. Eduard Kent. After withdrawing to Stalino it was subsequently re-equipped with the new Hs 129B-2, which was just then coming off the production line, and ordered to transfer to Poltava on 14 March and then to Stalino-North during the first half of April. By the beginning of May, the Staffel was flying in support of hard-pressed German ground forces on the Taman Peninsula, southwest of Rostov, losing two Hs 129B-2s near Krymskaya on 8 and 13 May.
In June the Staffel was sent back to Germany, possibly to have all or a number of its B-2s fitted with the new 30mm MK 103 armor-piercing cannon, and then returned and was stationed at Varvarovka for the upcoming Operation "Zitadelle". Losses were heavy in July with seven Hs 129B-2s falling to Soviet AA fire and at least three more heavily damaged between the 12th and 30th. Three pilots were killed and two missing in these engagements. Meanwhile the Staffel had been ordered from Varvarovka to Orel-West around 15 July to bolster the defense against the Soviet counter-attack towards Orel that commenced 13 July. As Soviet forces drove the Germans westward, 4. (Pz) pulled back to Konotop during the first half of August and then moved to Poltava at the end of August. A Hs 129B-2 was destroyed on the ground at Zaporozhye-East during a Soviet low-level air attack on September 5th and another five were lost over the course of the month as the Staffel retreated through the central Ukraine. It was at Kiev-Post Volinski on 21 September, at Askania Nova (123 km WSW of Melitopol) on 30 September, and on 6 October it was ordered to transfer to Orsha on the central sector of the Eastern Front, but there is no evidence that this was carried out. On or about 18 October, it was renamed 10.(Pz)/SG 9.
II./SchG 1
The II. Gruppe was raised at Lippstadt on 13 January 1942 with 5., and 6. Staffeln equipped with Hs 129B-1s and 7. Staffel with Hs 123As, the latter unit taking over the aircraft of 8. Staffel in April. After formation and workup was completed by the end of April, it was ordered to southern Russia for assignment with Luftflotte 4.
The first combat loss occured on May 9th when a Hs 129B-1 was shot down by Soviet AA fire, possibly over the eastern Crimea. The pilot, Hptm. Max Eck, was listed as missing. In mid-May, while based at Konstantinovka, operations centered on the Izyum Salient and around Stalino. It was there that three Hs 129B-1s were shot down by Russian AA fire on 23 May, a sever blow at this relatively early stage of the war for this newly formed unit.
The main effort shifted to the Kursk area and east towards Voronezh at the end of June and into the first half of July. The Gruppe was temporarily split up during this period with the Staffeln operating independently from Volchansk, Kharkov, Shatalovka, Orel, and Kursk on the central sector of the front. While flying from these airfields 6. Staffel lost two Hs 129B-1s to AA fire on 28 June and three Hs 123As from 7. Staffel failed to return from the Shchigry area northeast of Kursk on 29 June.
From mid-July the Gruppe concentrated on supporting the drive to Stalingrad, moving to Tatsinskaya. Frolov, and Tusov by mid-August. Toward the end of the month 5. Staffel was sent back to Orel and temporarily attached to JG 51. A strength return for 20 September reported a total of 46 Hs 129s and Hs 123s on hand with 28 serviceable. Losses that autumn in the Stalingrad area were very light. Lt. Josef Menapace, Staffelkapitän of 7. Staffel was wounded on 13 September when his Hs 123 was shot up by a Soviet fighter over Stalingrad, and 6. Staffel reported Hs 129 losses on both the 2nd and 11th of November. 7. Staffel received some Bf 109Es during the summer to supplement their stock of Hs 123As.
Meanwhile 5. Staffel was transferred to Jesau, in East Prussia, in October to rest and refit with Hs 129B-2s. It departed for North Africa on 5 November and arrived at Tunis-El Aounina on 29 November after being delayed enroute by bad weather. It flew its first combat mission the next day against British tanks and vehicle columns near Tebourba, followed by numerous successful missions to the end of the month. It was renamed 8.(Pz)/SchG 2 in January 1943. A new 5. Staffel for SchG 1 was formed a few weeks later in Germany with Fw 190s.
The Soviet counter-offensive at Stalingrad on 19 November brought a rapid turn of events. After moving from Millerovo to Frolov and Oblivskaya by November 26th, the Gruppe began a maximum effort around Stalingrad at the cost of at least eight Hs 129Bs, Hs 123As and Bf 109Es lost in ground attack missions or blown up to prevent capture by the on-coming Russians. From around December 6th, the Gruppenstab and 6. Staffel were operating from Rossosh, just west of the Don River and to the northeast of Kharkov, shooting up Russian tanks that were driving deep into the Romanian Third and Italian Eighth Armies, while 7. Staffel appears to have remained in the Stalingrad area with its Hs 123s, flying from Morosovskaya. By the 22nd of December, what was left of II./SchG 1 had pulled back to Voroshilovgrad.
In a summary of the year's operations, II. Gruppe reported flying a total of 3128 Hs 129 sorties, 1532 Hs 123 sorties, and 1938 Bf 109 sorties since formation, claimed 107 aircraft shot down or destroyed, while losing 20 Hs 129s, 16 Bf 109s, and 5 Hs 123s due to enemy action.
While operating from Voroshilovgrad II. Gruppe claimed 13 tanks destroyed. In mid-January 1943 the surviving personnel left for Deblin-Irena in Poland to rest and convert to the Fw 190, except for 7. Staffel which continued to fly the Hs 123. A few Hs 129s and crews from the other Staffeln were also left behind in South Russia. The Gruppenkommandeur, Hptm. Frank Neubert, was shot down and wounded by Soviet AA fire on 30 January near Skurbiy.
Based at Nikolayev-East from 6 February, the conversion to Fw 190A-5s was completed by the first week in March. The Gruppe was then transferred to Pavlograd in the east-central part of the Ukraine for a month of training and workups before moving back to the front in mid-April.
8.(Pz)/SchG 1
8./SchG 1 was renamed from 10.(Sch)/LG 2 on 13 January 1942 at Dugino in central Russia, where it continued to operate under VIII. Fliegerkorps until the beginning of April. It then returned to Germany, disbanded, and was then immediately reestablished with Bf 109E-7s. The Staffel's Hs 123s biplanes were turned over to 7. Staffel. Although 8. (Pz) was organizationally a component of I. Gruppe from 13 January 1942 until the Geschwader's reorganization in January-February 1943, it is carried separately here because of its conversion to the Hs 129 in January-February 1943 and redesignation as a PanzerjŠgerstaffel.
It was transferred to the southeastern part of the Ukraine via Lvov, Poland on May 5th and flew support missions in the fighting around the Izyum Salient in May, but didn't report any losses until July 26th, when a Bf 109E-7 returned to Morosovskaya-West badly damaged after being shot up by a Russian fighter. It remained active in the Stalingrad area with bases at Tusov in September and Morosovskaya in early December, but by mid-December was withdrawn for rest and conversion to the Hs 129, probably in Germany.
It was then redesignated as 8.(Pz)/SchG 1 and was semi-independent. It returned to southern Russia by the end of February and reported some training crashes at Zaparozhye-East on 22 February and at Kharkov on 21 March. At the beginning of April it was sent to the North Caucasus to support operations in the Kuban bridgehead, with bases at Kerch and Anapa. Very heavy losses were suffered in the bitter fighting over the beleaguered Kuban. A Hs 129B-2 went down to AA fire on April 5th, two more were lost in the Krymskaya-Bakanskaya area on 16 April; another on 3 May; two fell to AA fire on May 5th; two more on May 27th and the last was lost to Russian AA fire and fighters on 29 May.
The survivors were withdrawn to Zaporozhye in the southern Ukraine in early June to rest, refit, and re-equip. On 2 July, and now back to strength, 8. (Pz) was transferred to Mikoyanovka, 8 kilometers southwest of Belgorod, for Operation "Zitadelle", the German offensive against the Kursk salient. Losses were again heavy as the Staffel pounded Soviet armor east of Kursk. As the Germans were forced over to the defensive at the height of the battle, the Staffel was ordered to Orel-West around 15 July to help blunt the powerful Soviet counter-attack toward Orel that had begun two days before. By the end of July it was based at Karachev, about 75 kilometers west-northwest of Orel, probably at Konotop during August and then moved to Poltava around the beginning of September. From there the Staffel was committed in the fierce rear guard fighting between Kharkov and Kiev before transferring on 21 September to Zaporozhye. After losing five Hs 129B-2s over the course of the month, the next move was to Kiev on or about 30 September as the Soviet spearheads approached Zaporozhye. While based at Kiev 8. (Pz) was renamed 11.(Pz)/SG 9 in October 1943.
