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[Lightning Guy]

Well, that was the path preferred by German raiders and they had quite a lot of success sneaking out that way. If we are supposing the Graf Zepplin was operational at the start of the war, it sneaks out with out any trouble and may well have been in the Atlantic before the war began. It probably could have made it even as late as 1942 without much trouble.

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

but we know about the zepplin and would have kept a close eye on it, if it tried to move we would have seen it and attacted, it would have had it's own battle group, and you might be able to sneak one ship trough, but not an entire battle group.................

 

[Lightning Guy]

There would have been ways around it. Weather in the North Sea can be miserable and that would be an advantage to the Germans. Additionally, the Graf Zepplin wouldn't have had to sail with its battle group. They could have left port individualy at assembled at a point in the North Atlantic. And its not as if the it would have been a big battle group. For one thing, surprise is everything for a raider and it is harder for several ships to hide than for one (as you noted). Additionally, the Germans only had about 13 ships total during the war that were capable of truly functioning on prolonged patrols in the Atlantic. By guess is that the Graf Zepplin might have had 1 BB and a couple of CAs to opperate at best.

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

probery the zepplin's biggest advantage would be it's speed wouldn't it, i hear it was faster than all the RN's bigger ships................

 

[Lightning Guy]

The Graf Zepplin could supposedly do 32kts flat out. That was faster than any battleship save the Iowa class. The RN fleet carriers could match it for speed and most of the cruisers could overtake it but the British cruisers were out-gunned by the Graf Zepplin. A fight between the Zepplin and say a Town class cruiser might have been very interesting.

 

[MP-Willow]

That could be interesting. But I was reading that the Plan Z time line should have had the carrier ready and it could have stayed in the North Atlantic for a while, but fuel would be a big crippleing blow. It might make it out, and the RAF could miss it, but comming back in and getting back out are very dicey. All this could be mut if the Atlantic port at St. Nazier is still operational. Also the idea of this carrier waiting to go out might have fueled the RN for more designs. We will not know because Hitler jumped the war time line and politics crippled what might have been a good carrier.

 

[plan_D]

Goering was the reason it never made it out. And as mentioned the St. Nazaire dock would have had to stay intact to keep it in the war.

Getting out to the Atlantic would have been a hard task, as with the Bismarck it would have been hunted. The North Sea was blockaded and it would have been complete luck to get through.

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

the RAF would have picked it up whilst in dock proberly, ever since we weould run regualr patrolls just to check on it, if it did move the chances are it would have some form of escort, so it would have been easier to spot and we would torp. it before it made it to the atlantic, it's only chance would be to fight it's way out to the atlantic, not easy................

 

[Lightning Guy]

But the Bismarck did get through. So did the Scharnhorst, the Gneisnau, etc. It was possible for a ship to sneak through, difficult, but possible.

The Graf Zepplin would not have been a good carrier. It was Germany's first design and no one got it right the first time. Just look at the Langely, Furious, and Hosho as examples. The heavy armament was a waste of space and tonnage (note that both the Japanese and Americans tried this and rejected it) and the aircraft were rather hurried adaptations of land based aircraft. Further, the compliment was very small for its size. The Zepplin might have done alright as a raider, but would have been horrible as a fleet carrier.

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

but it didn't have much opposistion in the atlantic, it's aircraft would be doing anti-shipping strikes, not much dogfighting...............

and it's possible to get one ship out, but not a whole battle group, and if we'd known about the zepplin we'd have flown regular patrols over it and the north sea to make sure it didn't try and "do a runner".............

 

[Lightning Guy]

The RAF was doing the same thing with the Bismarck and it nearly escaped. If the Zepplin set sail in the winter, when the North Atlantic weather is really nasty, it would probably have a better than even chance of getting out unnoticed.

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

The RAF was doing the same thing with the Bismarck and it nearly escaped

as it was we managed to hit it before it did, then they had to move it around for repairs, they we delivered the knock out blow, what's to stop us doing the same with the zepplin..............

 

[Lightning Guy]

I'm not saying it couldn't be done, but there were days at a time that the Bismarck wasn't being followed by RAF aircraft. And if the weather is crummy and the RAF can't fly . . .

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

but there were days at a time that the Bismarck wasn't being followed by RAF aircraft

so we pick them up the next day, it takes a while to get out to the atlantic..............

 

[Lightning Guy]

It's not as easy as it sounds. It could be done, but it would have been a challenge. All I am really trying to say is that there is a decent possibility that the Graf Zeppelin could have made it out into the Atlantic.

 

[MP-Willow]

Ok. So as a raider and realizing it needs improvment would a second carrier or for that matter the one that was already proposed be developed more on the lines of the USN? Or for that matter wny not have looked at the INJ carriers They were of good design and could have helped a lot.

 

[plan_D]

The Germans didn't truly want a carrier, only the Kreigsmarine wanted one as a raider. Hitler isn't going to go out of his way to gain other countries designs when he doesn't even want one.

The Bismarck did make it out, but it was hunted all the way. The same would have happened to the Graf Zeppelin. It would have been luck to escape the RAF and RN.

 

[Lightning Guy]

In my opinion, it would have been a wise move for the Germans to have accepted some information exchange as the Japanese had the most advanced navy in the world in 1941. Yes Britain had a larger navy, but they had no carrier to compare to Shokaku, no battleship to compare with Yamato, no cruiser to compare with Mogami, and the Japanese arguably had the best submarines of the entire war.

 

[plan_D]

A ship is one big lump of steel without its crew.

 

[Lightning Guy]

Japanese Navy was very highly trained. During the first year or so of the war they pretty much knocked the crap out of whatever the ABDA threw at them. That's the American, British, Dutch, and Australian Forces. In terms of crew and technology, I would say the Japanese navy was it at the start of WWII.