Best twin engine dogfighter

[Glider]

Working on the basis that you can only really compare one aircraft with onather against the level of opposition at the time then I suggest that the Fokker G1 more than held its own in daytime fighting until the odd took over. At this time the Me110 had a good track record but came unstuck when it met the SPits and modified Hurricanes.

 

[spicmart]

Count the Ki-83 in. Given the right treatment and fuel it would have been
right up there with the Tigercat and Hornet as was the Fw 187 (I am just claiming that ).

 

[Mike Williams]

[...]That being said though, reading about the Banff strike wing in 44/45 they had many dogfights in their Mossies vs 109s and 190s.

Sounds interesting OldSkeptic, can you please provide a title and author? Thanks.

 

[davebender]

No other twin mass produced prior to May 1945 can match Me-262s aerial performance.

 

[OldSkeptic]

Sounds interesting OldSkeptic, can you please provide a title and author? Thanks.

Yes a lovely little book Mike.

"A Separate Little War", The Banff Coastal Command Strike Wing vs the Kreigsmarine and Luftwaffe in Norway.. Sept 44 to March 45.
Andrew D Bord.

And yes you can get it on Kindle. Great little book. Max Aitken was the Group Captain.

Not that small in the end, they had Beaus, Mossies, later added Mustangs. Moved to a total Mossie force a bit later (though Beaus still came in from another base) , and Mustang (Poles) support was added later. Had a mixed force of Torbeaus, Tse Mossies (Molins 57mm) and Mossies VIs with bombs at first. Moved to an all Mossie rocket force at Banff later.


The Mossie vs Ju-88 is covered in Chapter 16, Mossies vs KG 25 II Grupe and III Grupe.
Now remember this was combat at 200ft, the weather, as always, was so very bad.

Squadron Leader Alec Gunnis recorded that the "sea was ablaze with aircraft".
And he also says "5 times I had a Ju in my sights and each time another Mosquito crew mixed in and shot it down before I could draw a bead".

Funny you read time and time again that the Ju-88 was the German's Mossie .. not it wasn't by a long, very long, shot (even just as a pure bomber).
If they had got the Tu-154 up and running they might have had something equal (except it couldn't carry bombs of course).

 

[vikingBerserker]

The Me 262 had speed and firepower, but I thought it was not much of a dog fighter.

 

[Dogwalker]

Any others you can think of that are better than those listed?

Don't know if better, but the IMAM Ro.57 can be listed. In 1939, 516 km/h at 5250m, climb at 6000m in 7m,6s, 1200km range. At the Air Force trials, at Guidonia, it was found to be less agile than the Macchi C.200, but the opposite would have been a miracle.

 

[OldSkeptic]

The Me 262 had speed and firepower, but I thought it was not much of a dog fighter.

Despite its high wing loading it was surprisingly agile. Once you got it up to speed (450mph) it could turn pretty well and use that energy for zoom climbs, etc.
You had to had careful not exceed its mach limits of course. And it had poor acceleration as did all the early jets.
The important thing was to get it up to speed and keep it there, once you did that you were untouchable.

It was a good airframe the 262, its weaknesses were with the engines not the performance of the actual plane.

Basically you can compare it to the UK's Meteor: the 262 was a great airframe with crappy engines, the Meteor was great engines within a crappy airframe.

Though you have to think the wicked thought: If Willy Messerschmitt had spent a bit more time on a successor to the 109 (a real 209), or even make those disasters the 210 and 410 actually work, then his time might have been spent more effectively for Germany's defence. Bit of a Prima Donna I suspect.
One of the reasons I respect Kurt Tank a lot more. Just imagine what he could have achieved if Daimler Benz and Jumo had actually delivered on some of their promises on engines. The Allied air forces would have had a bit more trouble than they did.

It is a total condemnation of the whole system and people involved (Govt, airframe manufacturers, engines manufacturers, etc) that they were still producing and using the Me-110 in 1945, a plane that was obsolete in 1940*.

Note: I always prefer to use the term agile to sum together all the elements needed, roll, zoom/contineous climb, dive, instantaneous/contineous turn, acceleration, etc, etc.

* Then again are we any better with that mega (giga, more accurately tera) disaster the F-35?

 

[davebender]

Me 262 had speed and firepower, but I thought it was not much of a dog fighter.

Are you expecting a 540mph aircraft to stall fight at 200 mph? Any pilot who attempted that would be an idiot.

Me-262 was plenty maneuverable @ speeds above 500mph. It can dictate the engagement, making high speed pass followed by zoom climb. Four nose mounted cannon provide a weapons package that has no WWII equal.

 

[Glider]

If I can add to positng 25 in the battles over the Bay of Biscay the Luftwaffe Ju88's were ordered not to take on Mosquitos and only take on the Beaufighters if they had a clear advantage in numbers.

May I also second "A Separate Little War", its a good read, full of details.

 

[altsym]

The need to stop bombers from reaching their targets, or to protect them on their missions, was the primary purpose for most dogfights of the era

 

[CharlesBronson]

Doghtfighting with a P-70 havoc ??

The P-38 is my choice.

 

[Greyman]

Doghtfighting with a P-70 havoc ??

In AFDU trials a Boston II was almost able to out turn a Hurricane I with 15 - 30 degrees of flap.

 

[davebender]

262 was a great airframe with crappy engines, the Meteor was great engines within a crappy airframe.

1935. Anglo-German détente.
Think what might have been if bone headed politicians in Berlin and London expanded détente into Anglo-German cooperation rather then destroying the fragile new relationship?

Britain and Germany would pretty much have a monopoly on radar and jet aircraft.

The new Mosquito Schnell bomber would be made of German aluminum and armed with MG151/20 cannon. Customers have their choice of RR Merlin or DB605 engines.

Speaking of RR Merlin engines...
Miss Shilling can keep her orifice. RR Merlin engines will have Bosch fuel injection.

 

[jim]

Not very, but then it was huge.

Cheers

Steve

Mr Stona
How you support your opinion that Do 335 was not agile ?

1) Rate of rall : Do 335 had a huge advantage in this area in comparison to every other twin engined fighter having both engines on the central axis of the aircraft and not on the wings. Additionaly it had hydraulically boosted ailerons . On paper Do 335 should have the best rate of rall
2) Power loading and wing loading . WITHOUT bombs Do 335A had a power loading of 2,45kgr/m2 without MW50 and 2,07 kgr/m2 with MW50
F These numbers are similar if not superior to the Hornets and i believe superior in comparison to F7F . And do 335 could recieve any new german engine for future upgrade. Hornets merlin 130 was specifically desighed for the aircraft and the only engines available for the aircrafts
3) The low frontal area of do335 (because of its unique shape) along with his relatively low power loading suggests that at least its sustained turn rate should be excellent
4) many late war alleid fighters used laminar flow wings, including hornet. Thats good for speed . However i believe that Do 335s normal, fat wing would produce more lift in a dogfight
Do 335 was very complicate design and thats not good . But i can not see any reason that it should be less manouverable thatn the rest late twin engine fighters

 

[davebender]

Like the Mosquito, Ju-88 and Me-410 it was a light bomber. I don't doubt Do-335 would best these three but they cannot compare with purpose built fighter aircraft such as P-38, Fw-187 and Me-262 for aerial combat.

 

[drgondog]

Mr Stona
How you support your opinion that Do 335 was not agile ?

1) Rate of rall : Do 335 had a huge advantage in this area in comparison to every other twin engined fighter having both engines on the central axis of the aircraft and not on the wings. Additionaly it had hydraulically boosted ailerons . On paper Do 335 should have the best rate of rall.

Possibly. What is important include a.) initial roll response to overcome intertia and b.) sustained Roll rate. Do you have any date regarding the mass distributions?

2) Power loading and wing loading . WITHOUT bombs Do 335A had a power loading of 2,45kgr/m2 without MW50 and 2,07 kgr/m2 with MW50
F These numbers are similar if not superior to the Hornets and i believe superior in comparison to F7F . And do 335 could recieve any new german engine for future upgrade. Hornets merlin 130 was specifically desighed for the aircraft and the only engines available for the aircrafts
3) The low frontal area of do335 (because of its unique shape) along with his relatively low power loading suggests that at least its sustained turn rate should be excellent

Unless you have Cdo data you don't have a notion of the ability of the Do 335 to sustain energy with low drag characteristics compared to other ships. Sustained turn performance is about a.) CL, b.) Wing Loading, c.) Drag, which not only comprises CDo and CDi but also Profile Drag of airframe in high AoA environment... do you have the other data other than wing loading? What was CLmax without flaps, and if manuevering flaps are used what is the reduction of CL/CD?

4) many late war alleid fighters used laminar flow wings, including hornet. Thats good for speed . However i believe that Do 335s normal, fat wing would produce more lift in a dogfight.

What is the CLmax and what does the CL/CD curve look like? You can't make simple generalizations based on laminar vs non laminar.

Do 335 was very complicate design and thats not good . But i can not see any reason that it should be less manouverable thatn the rest late twin engine fighters

The first quick rule of thumb comparisons should be on CLmax and Excess Power at approximately 240 mph to 280mph which is where the high performing fighter Corner Speed ranges occurred.

 

[wuzak]

Like the Mosquito, Ju-88 and Me-410 it was a light bomber. I don't doubt Do-335 would best these three but they cannot compare with purpose built fighter aircraft such as P-38, Fw-187 and Me-262 for aerial combat.

The light bomber was but one version of the Do 335.

There were also the heavy fighter and night fighter versions.

Unlike the Mosquito, it was designed from the outset to perform each of those roles.

 

[Tante Ju]

In the Bay of Biscay they had mostly Ju 88Cs, essentially Ju 88 bombers with forward firing armament, quite underpowered and rather slow. They had their long range going for them.

There is somewhere a British AFDU tactical trial with Ju 88 bomber, they found it very surprisingly agile though.

Anyway for a dogfight its probably the Me 110. It was surprisingly agile and a good turner (for a twin), its successors 210/410 were more like fast bombers and not particularly agile. The Do 215, 335 or the He 219 were heavy, but fast planes, but not very manouverable (they did not need to be). I do not know about the Mosquito, but probably the same, a fast aircraft, but its construction does not lend to agility. The Beaufighter, Pe 3 are also strong contenders. I do not know about the Japanese planes.

 

[Tante Ju]

Do 335 was very complicate design and thats not good . But i can not see any reason that it should be less manouverable thatn the rest late twin engine fighters

I can - see wing loading of Do 335. Fast, good roller - but huge wingloading so turns would be probably absymal (would two heavy engines in axis make it even worse..?).

Its a bit like P-47.