Doctor Gon Dog (it´s easier to spell in this form):
I do not deny the Mustang was a superb fighter with advanced combat capabilities for the scenario it would be operating over...but so were those ships fielded by the Germans: G-5,-6,-14/AS, G-10, K-4, the Antons, the Doras and of course the rare Ta 152 H-1.
Also agree with your comments that it was ONLY skill of the pilot in the cockpit which would come to make the difference.
Where i will have to disagree with you is when you say "...enabling relatively small numbers to turn the control of the air over Germany to the US".
When you say "small numbers" you should of course be referring to the long range escorts...that their numbers were low enough to find themselves outnumbered.
This is not the first time i come across this notion; that the P-51´s over Germany were significantly outnumbered, yet managed to defeat whatever enemy fighter stream they confronted in the air...
If so, such high losses of German fighters inflicted by a relatively small number of P-51 pilots should reflect on the lists of top scorers of the 8th USAAF to say the least...i mean, i am doing this by memory but if i recall correctly the list has Gabby as the top scorer with some 28 kills (but Gabby flew the venerable Jug as i also seem to recall); following behind should come the Noble Robert Johnson -which also flew a Jug and not a Mustang)...so apart from these 2 gentlemen, i think there are only 5 or 6 more USAAF aces with more than 20 kills -and i ought to check this for they are not all P-51 pilots as well-, most of them from the 56, 352 and 359 FGs.
And i am aware of the combat program for fighter pilots in the USAAF...fly during a specific time, if you survive then clear your stuff and go back home.
So -overclaiming acknowledged- less than 30 kills as the standard (only 6 or 7 pilots with 20-28 kills), and also not too many Mustang pilots with 10-19 kills, seems quite low if i position myself under the assertion a relatively small number of pilots which were most frequently -or always?- outnumbered by enemy fighters are responsible for turning the control of air space over Germany to the U.S., something the implies the defeat of the enemy tagjagdwaffe.
This is only one approach to counter this theory.
About the G-6/R6´s, well there i too agree with you; there is no way we can know an accurate number of the 109s which were fitted to operate with the extra-cannon equipment under the wings...someone i met in Europe told me it was his estimate at least 50% of 109s used during late 1943-mid 1944 were fitted with the underwing gondlas, but it was just that, an estimate.
What we do however know is the fact that particular version saw widespread use in combat in several units, like JG 1 and JG 11 since late 1943, when they were covering Holland and northern Germany -i know late 1943 does not have Mustangs in the long range mode-, but also through most of 1944 in those 2 units and many others as well that were committed to Reichsverteidigung. Also my Luftwaffe videos and films show an important number of these bomber-destroyer configuration of the 109 in Luftwaffe airfields.
So you are suggesting that those G-6/R6´s who managed to return to their base -which were the significant majority of them- after being engaged by the escorts could only attain it for the main reason there were not enough P-51´s to go after them?
No credit to the capabilities of the 109 although somewhat disrupted by such fitting of equipment? No credit to 109 G-6/R6 pilots who proved capable to evade any pursuing P-51s?
If so many G-6/R6´s managed to return to base after engaging Jugs and Mustangs, what could one think of a Bf 109 bearing only its classical weapons? Surely more capable.
Houston, we have a problem...and the problem i see is the allies have managed to depict the Germans finished the war almost if not identical to the Japanese style...more hogwash to remove from my list. You know virtually "all German fighter missions wiped out to the very last...with only a fistful of wounded pilots returning to base on foot because they too were shot down".
Crap. As i said, i have a close idea of the magnitude of German losses during summer 1944 until the end in 1945. High. Simple. But not like the allies have said, not with regard to German losses, not with regard to the losses of their own.
The only equal thing was total and unconditional surrender; the rest deserves very special analysis.
Now the guncamera thing...i agree with you -and was also aware of it- that in so many times it was either a German guy or USA guy who got outflown and paid accordingly...i possibly used the wrong words, not that you can learn "tech specifications" of craft from watching guncamera footage, right...but my point is that you do not get to see that much footage shown P-51´s blowing in huge fire balls.
Speaking for myself is that i tell you that before acquiring my collection i had seen possibly ONE -repeat, one- film of a P-51 getting hit and it was not even conclusive for the film shot ended before showing if the pounding continued finishing with a possible kill.
What the videos did show me is that many many times P-51 pilots attempted evading procedures to no avail: the narrowest turning possible with the camera of the 109 or 190 remaining inside scoring hits, dives, climbing...huge fire balls from silly pilots with the drop tanks still under the wings...if a well trained pilot from the USAAF could not escape from the pursuing German then it also tells me the German was a very competitive pilot and that his plane allows for displaying the necessary skills to destroy your enemy.
I have ~85 shots of sauteed P-51s, plus dozens more showing similar fates of Jugs, Spitfires, Typhoons/Tempests and even some P-38s. What of the many other USAAF fighters that got shot down by the Luftwaffe? Were all those the cause of badly trained pilots manning inadequate planes??
Who is Ken Miller? Is his work published?
SoDStitch:
I simply like the truth. Books such as the one i did describe focused on Bodenplatte used to pissed me off big time a very few of years ago, when i was still a teenager. Now i find them amusing.
The allies have lied big time about so many issues of the war; every aspect of the war has been targeted in a lesser or higher degree with their lies: weapons, battlefield records, politics.
In fact, i take most of what comes from the allied side with a grain of salt.
Perhaps you have seen Erich around here; well he himself shared his experiences with some historians or researchers from some USAAF bomber group when he was denied access to information or files. Why would that be? Because they want to hide the successes of such group?
Well...so you live in Tucson? I have not been at Sullivan´s for breakfast. Only for dinner, but hey, dinner is something like more special don´t you think? I rarely go out for breakfast wherever is it that i might be living in.
Dinner is really something; the day is over, and you want to forget about the things of the day whatever they are: bad day at work, your wife or girlfriends conspiracies, the IRS...
If you have not yet had dinner there you are missing something. I am of the opinion that the sophisticated ambience of a place gets enhanced during the night. Something that works marvelously in that restaurant. Also the bar has something special; i barely drink, but being at Sullivan´s bar before entering the dining room makes me want to have a cold beer or some good scotch...and the waitresses, yeah!
The last time i went there, i stayed there for about a week and a half; i stayed with a friend who lives in La Paloma. During such time we went there 4 times for dinner -two of those were in a row-; i have fun when i remember the face of the manager upon seeing me entering his dining room.
There was this appetizer which is unforgettable: Seared Ahi Tuna...small cuts of Albacore, seared in the outside, and that real creamy buttery flavor in the inside...you should really try it. The oysters...well, the USA has really got one of the greatest logistic systems on earth...a city in the middle of the Sonora Desert, not far from the border with Mexico and you can have some of the freshest and best oysters you can think of...as if you were in some fishermen village by the sea side...on a different setting -and surrounded by fine women in black-.
I loved the black outfit all the waitresses; whenever is it that i come back, i might give you a call.8)
I do not deny the Mustang was a superb fighter with advanced combat capabilities for the scenario it would be operating over...but so were those ships fielded by the Germans: G-5,-6,-14/AS, G-10, K-4, the Antons, the Doras and of course the rare Ta 152 H-1.
Also agree with your comments that it was ONLY skill of the pilot in the cockpit which would come to make the difference.
Where i will have to disagree with you is when you say "...enabling relatively small numbers to turn the control of the air over Germany to the US".
When you say "small numbers" you should of course be referring to the long range escorts...that their numbers were low enough to find themselves outnumbered.
This is not the first time i come across this notion; that the P-51´s over Germany were significantly outnumbered, yet managed to defeat whatever enemy fighter stream they confronted in the air...
If so, such high losses of German fighters inflicted by a relatively small number of P-51 pilots should reflect on the lists of top scorers of the 8th USAAF to say the least...i mean, i am doing this by memory but if i recall correctly the list has Gabby as the top scorer with some 28 kills (but Gabby flew the venerable Jug as i also seem to recall); following behind should come the Noble Robert Johnson -which also flew a Jug and not a Mustang)...so apart from these 2 gentlemen, i think there are only 5 or 6 more USAAF aces with more than 20 kills -and i ought to check this for they are not all P-51 pilots as well-, most of them from the 56, 352 and 359 FGs.
And i am aware of the combat program for fighter pilots in the USAAF...fly during a specific time, if you survive then clear your stuff and go back home.
So -overclaiming acknowledged- less than 30 kills as the standard (only 6 or 7 pilots with 20-28 kills), and also not too many Mustang pilots with 10-19 kills, seems quite low if i position myself under the assertion a relatively small number of pilots which were most frequently -or always?- outnumbered by enemy fighters are responsible for turning the control of air space over Germany to the U.S., something the implies the defeat of the enemy tagjagdwaffe.
This is only one approach to counter this theory.
About the G-6/R6´s, well there i too agree with you; there is no way we can know an accurate number of the 109s which were fitted to operate with the extra-cannon equipment under the wings...someone i met in Europe told me it was his estimate at least 50% of 109s used during late 1943-mid 1944 were fitted with the underwing gondlas, but it was just that, an estimate.
What we do however know is the fact that particular version saw widespread use in combat in several units, like JG 1 and JG 11 since late 1943, when they were covering Holland and northern Germany -i know late 1943 does not have Mustangs in the long range mode-, but also through most of 1944 in those 2 units and many others as well that were committed to Reichsverteidigung. Also my Luftwaffe videos and films show an important number of these bomber-destroyer configuration of the 109 in Luftwaffe airfields.
So you are suggesting that those G-6/R6´s who managed to return to their base -which were the significant majority of them- after being engaged by the escorts could only attain it for the main reason there were not enough P-51´s to go after them?
No credit to the capabilities of the 109 although somewhat disrupted by such fitting of equipment? No credit to 109 G-6/R6 pilots who proved capable to evade any pursuing P-51s?
If so many G-6/R6´s managed to return to base after engaging Jugs and Mustangs, what could one think of a Bf 109 bearing only its classical weapons? Surely more capable.
Houston, we have a problem...and the problem i see is the allies have managed to depict the Germans finished the war almost if not identical to the Japanese style...more hogwash to remove from my list. You know virtually "all German fighter missions wiped out to the very last...with only a fistful of wounded pilots returning to base on foot because they too were shot down".
Crap. As i said, i have a close idea of the magnitude of German losses during summer 1944 until the end in 1945. High. Simple. But not like the allies have said, not with regard to German losses, not with regard to the losses of their own.
The only equal thing was total and unconditional surrender; the rest deserves very special analysis.
Now the guncamera thing...i agree with you -and was also aware of it- that in so many times it was either a German guy or USA guy who got outflown and paid accordingly...i possibly used the wrong words, not that you can learn "tech specifications" of craft from watching guncamera footage, right...but my point is that you do not get to see that much footage shown P-51´s blowing in huge fire balls.
Speaking for myself is that i tell you that before acquiring my collection i had seen possibly ONE -repeat, one- film of a P-51 getting hit and it was not even conclusive for the film shot ended before showing if the pounding continued finishing with a possible kill.
What the videos did show me is that many many times P-51 pilots attempted evading procedures to no avail: the narrowest turning possible with the camera of the 109 or 190 remaining inside scoring hits, dives, climbing...huge fire balls from silly pilots with the drop tanks still under the wings...if a well trained pilot from the USAAF could not escape from the pursuing German then it also tells me the German was a very competitive pilot and that his plane allows for displaying the necessary skills to destroy your enemy.
I have ~85 shots of sauteed P-51s, plus dozens more showing similar fates of Jugs, Spitfires, Typhoons/Tempests and even some P-38s. What of the many other USAAF fighters that got shot down by the Luftwaffe? Were all those the cause of badly trained pilots manning inadequate planes??
Who is Ken Miller? Is his work published?
SoDStitch:
I simply like the truth. Books such as the one i did describe focused on Bodenplatte used to pissed me off big time a very few of years ago, when i was still a teenager. Now i find them amusing.
The allies have lied big time about so many issues of the war; every aspect of the war has been targeted in a lesser or higher degree with their lies: weapons, battlefield records, politics.
In fact, i take most of what comes from the allied side with a grain of salt.
Perhaps you have seen Erich around here; well he himself shared his experiences with some historians or researchers from some USAAF bomber group when he was denied access to information or files. Why would that be? Because they want to hide the successes of such group?
Well...so you live in Tucson? I have not been at Sullivan´s for breakfast. Only for dinner, but hey, dinner is something like more special don´t you think? I rarely go out for breakfast wherever is it that i might be living in.
Dinner is really something; the day is over, and you want to forget about the things of the day whatever they are: bad day at work, your wife or girlfriends conspiracies, the IRS...
If you have not yet had dinner there you are missing something. I am of the opinion that the sophisticated ambience of a place gets enhanced during the night. Something that works marvelously in that restaurant. Also the bar has something special; i barely drink, but being at Sullivan´s bar before entering the dining room makes me want to have a cold beer or some good scotch...and the waitresses, yeah!
The last time i went there, i stayed there for about a week and a half; i stayed with a friend who lives in La Paloma. During such time we went there 4 times for dinner -two of those were in a row-; i have fun when i remember the face of the manager upon seeing me entering his dining room.
There was this appetizer which is unforgettable: Seared Ahi Tuna...small cuts of Albacore, seared in the outside, and that real creamy buttery flavor in the inside...you should really try it. The oysters...well, the USA has really got one of the greatest logistic systems on earth...a city in the middle of the Sonora Desert, not far from the border with Mexico and you can have some of the freshest and best oysters you can think of...as if you were in some fishermen village by the sea side...on a different setting -and surrounded by fine women in black-.
I loved the black outfit all the waitresses; whenever is it that i come back, i might give you a call.8)
