Best WWII Air-Force

[trackend]

Just a thought but the RAF all Commonwealth air forces were very eclectic my Uncles Wellington had two Canadians and an Australian in its crew so I think they were really an amalgamated commonwealth air force, so IMO it makes it quite hard to separate the RCAF, the RAF the RAAF

 

[drgondog]

Bill, wish you would clarify something for me. Earlier in this thread you were comparing Mustang sorties, losses and kills with Jugs and P38s. Said something like their kills were mostly German. Are you saying that some of those awarded kills were not German, perhaps japanese? The reason I ask is that the sortie numbers and loss numbers jibe exactly with mine but I am under the impression those sortie numbers were all in the ETO.

Renrich - you are right about the ETO - I checked my sources again. I should have caught the mistake just by the P-38 numbers as they had nearly that many in PTO alone.

 

[renrich]

One of the numbers in those stats from the ETO that caught my eye was that the P51 had almost as many losses as the P47 yet flew roughly only half the sorties. While the P38 in spite of having the extra engine to come home on(or maybe because of it) had a loss rate almost twice that of the P47. By the way, Bill, thanks for the clarification.

 

[drgondog]

Stafing airfields a lot will that for you.

Using the 355th FG as an example - of the 190+ a/c lost for all causes (air, flak, mechanical, wether, accident) they lost 92 to flak, more than double the air losses to German fighters..

The P-38 had a huge percentage to engine related losses in the ETO.

 

[pbfoot]

Just a thought but the RAF all Commonwealth air forces were very eclectic my Uncles Wellington had two Canadians and an Australian in its crew so I think they were really an amalgamated commonwealth air force, so IMO it makes it quite hard to separate the RCAF, the RAF the RAAF

I agree that most of the RAF Squadrons were cosmopolitan but if you look at the RCAF and RAAF (unsure about RNZAF) squadrons they were made up of mostly nationals. I am reading about one RCAF guy who had to sign over to the RAF so he could join a RAF squadron . The RCAF and RAAF were paid much better then the RAF and it caused grief if some were paid better then others of the same rank and same squadron. The RCAF also pushed for commissioned ranks for aircrew as the crews were pissed that they couldn't eat or hang together becauxe some were NCO's and others commissioned

 

[Glider]

The RCAF, RAAF and RSAAF could be considered as part of the RAF as they were paid for and equipped by Britain. Something I only picked up a few weeks ago.

 

[pbfoot]

The RCAF, RAAF and RSAAF could be considered as part of the RAF as they were paid for and equipped by Britain. Something I only picked up a few weeks ago.

would be interested in seeing that as I believe we paid our own way if not more . But I have been wrong before. If I am correct the UK paid of its last war debts to Canada on 12/29/06 the same time they finished with US

 

[renrich]

I wonder what percentage of the P47 sorties were air to ground versus the escort missions compared to P51 same type sorties. Of course, I imagine late in the war both types engaged in TO type operations after an escort mission was completed.

 

[trackend]

I agree that most of the RAF Squadrons were cosmopolitan but if you look at the RCAF and RAAF (unsure about RNZAF) squadrons they were made up of mostly nationals. I am reading about one RCAF guy who had to sign over to the RAF so he could join a RAF squadron . The RCAF and RAAF were paid much better then the RAF and it caused grief if some were paid better then others of the same rank and same squadron. The RCAF also pushed for commissioned ranks for aircrew as the crews were pissed that they couldn't eat or hang together becauxe some were NCO's and others commissioned

Sorry PB for the confusion although it appears the way I put it that my uncle was in the RAF, he was actually in 429 Bison Squadron of the RCAF.

 

[pbfoot]

Sorry PB for the confusion although it appears the way I put it that my uncle was in the RAF, he was actually in 429 Bison Squadron of the RCAF.

Flight engineer I'm going to guess we were short of them initially. I worked with 429 for about 2 years

 

[Wildcat]

Just a thought but the RAF all Commonwealth air forces were very eclectic my Uncles Wellington had two Canadians and an Australian in its crew so I think they were really an amalgamated commonwealth air force, so IMO it makes it quite hard to separate the RCAF, the RAF the RAAF

Very true, for anyone who's interested, here's an example. On the 1st of Jan 1945, there was 2621 RAAF aircrew spread amonst 214 RAF squadrons. According the the official history, this meant that at this time there were RAAF aircrew in all but 88 RAF squadrons, which were Czech, Polish, Canadian, French etc squadrons where they were excluded anyway. Like Trackie said, this makes it very difficult to separate the men of various nationalities.

 

[trackend]

Flight engineer I'm going to guess we were short of them initially. I worked with 429 for about 2 years

He was a Sgt pilot PB got shot down and killed on his seventh misson
heres a link to my thread about him
http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aviation/uncle-denniss-flight-record-3077.html

 

[pbfoot]

I agree with the fact many squadrons were mixed but a very large percentage of Commonwealth squadrons were made up by nationals . A full 25% of bomber command was Canadian . I sort of reverse engineered this by checking on the crews involved in losses by looking up squadrons like RAAF 460 and 6 gp squadrons
Lost Bombers - World War II Lost Bombers

 

[mosquitoman]

Whilst each Commonwealth country had its own Royal Canadian/Australian/New Zealand/South African (delete as appropriate) Air Force, they all eventually came under the control of Sir Charles Portal, Chief of Air Staff. Therefore, IMO they all come under the heading of the RAF.

 

[Hop]

I am not aware of any comprehensive list of BC aircrew by nationality, but the fatal casualties were all recorded:

RAF - 69.2%
RCAF - 17.8%
RAAF - 7.3%
RNZAF - 3%
PAF - 1.7%
Other - 1%

Those are casualties rather than numbers served, but should be fairly accurate for aircrew.

 

[pbfoot]

Under the heading of Bomber Command yes RAF no.

6 Group RCAF "Situated 4 miles east of Knaresborough, a 75 room mansion on a 2000 acre estate, Allerton Park Castle was requisitioned by the Air Ministry from Lord Mowbray. This castle was then transformed into offices and was the administration and operations headquarters of the Canadian [6 Group] Bomber Command. On Dec 6,1942, headquarters was moved from the temporary site at Linton on Ouse to Allerton Park. The 6 Group officially reached operational status at 00.01 on Jan 1,1943. With this in affect, the Canadian squadrons ceased to take orders from 4 Group, and now reported directly to bomber command headquarters in High Wycombe. The financial responsibility for aircraft maintenance and administration was now looked after by the Canadian governmen. The order of battle will show which squadrons and airfields came on line as of this date. All 6 Group airfields were located in North Yorkshire and therefore had the furthest to fly when attacking most targets. Because of the topographic features in this area, the airfields were close together, and circuits overlapped, making flying hazardous. This,along with fog and industrial smog, made takeoffs and landings very stressful on the aircrews and airfield controllers. Allerton Park was also responsible to insure that all squadrons complied with instructions from bomber command as to routes, bombload, bombing height, and timing over the target. The stations were responsible for accommodation, feeding, and maintenance of squadron aircraft."


The RCAF guys were not all that fond of all the Brit senior officers
Broadhurst even said he didn't like the Colonials

 

[Glider]

Interesting additional detail, many thanks

 

[claidemore]

I voted for the RCAF.

A country with less than 12 million people, ended up with the fourth largest airforce in the world by 1945. 200,000 aircrew, (not including those in RAF service), 48 squadrons overseas, and Canada trained an additional 80 operational squadrons through BCATP. In fact they trained so many pilots, they were told to stop it already!

There are very good reasons to choose some of the other airforces as the best, but...at the end of the day...which airforce had the best hockey team? I think we all know who I'm talking about..... lol

 

[syscom3]

I voted for the RCAF.

A country with less than 12 million people, ended up with the fourth largest airforce in the world by 1945. 200,000 aircrew, (not including those in RAF service), 48 squadrons overseas, and Canada trained an additional 80 operational squadrons through BCATP. In fact they trained so many pilots, they were told to stop it already!

There are very good reasons to choose some of the other airforces as the best, but...at the end of the day...which airforce had the best hockey team? I think we all know who I'm talking about..... lol

And it was such a distant 4th to the AAF, it didnt even count.

The USN had an even larger naval air corps than Canada did.

 

[pbfoot]

And it was such a distant 4th to the AAF, it didnt even count.

The USN had an even larger naval air corps than Canada did.

We've always been a believer of quality rather then quantity and if you check out some of your better ETO pilots you would see they were trained by the RCAF and if we were that bad or useless why did 6667 US citizens out of the 8800 that joined the RCAF as aircrew before you guys decided to play remain with the RCAF rather then return to US Forces when you joined the game (been waiting to use that stat for a while thanks for the opening)