Thumpalumpacus
Major
Only if escorted by some Groundhoggins.
Ad: This forum contains affiliate links to products on Amazon and eBay. More information in Terms and rules
But...but...it has crosses on the wings and fuselage so it MUST be a world-beater!
I just had the same thought about an hour ago!
It's funny you should state that info, which is good and details a very smart means of producing damage to the UK simply because they were so difficult to defend against.
The Germans recognised this, as the raids were literally called 'nuisance' and 'harassing' attacks.
The problem was the value that the Germans placed on them and the targets they sought to attack. Had the Germans been more mindful in targetting airfields and factories, as they did during the BoB, the damage inflicted could have been greater. Particularly on bomber airfields in Suffolk and Lincolnshire. The British were fortunate the Germans did not have so much foresight to really appreciate what could have been achieved.
The situation was not yet critical in early December 1943, however, and the Luftwaffe remained convinced that Bomber Command could be beaten. The single, most glaring weakness in Germany's air-defence organization, I Jagdkorps noted, was the utter lack of offensive action over the United Kingdom, because bombers, taking off, fully loaded, or trying to land with nearly empty tanks or battle damage, were in no position to take evasive action and were not protected by Window. Generalleutnant Schmid therefore proposed that intruder operations on a large scale should begin against Bomber Command using Ju 88s and He 219s equipped with the latest electronic equipment, but Steinflug (as this operation was called) was turned down by Hitler because, it was said, he preferred bombers to be shot down over Germany, where they could be seen by civilians.
--- The Crucible of War 1939–1945 (Volume III) by Brereton Greenhous, Stpehen J. Harris, William C. Johnson, and William G.P. Rawling – p.748
[T]wo nights earlier, the Luftwaffe had finally mounted Operation Gisela, sending 142 Ju 88s over England to pick off aircraft of Nos 4 and 5 Groups as they returned from Kamden and the Dortmund-Ems canal. The night-fighters had attacked forty-three bombers, shooting down twenty-two and damaging eight more. Many crews had been taken completely by surprise and, with their landing lights on, were easy pickings.
--- The Crucible of War 1939–1945 (Volume III) by Brereton Greenhous, Stpehen J. Harris, William C. Johnson, and William G.P. Rawling – p.859
The problem was the value that the Germans placed on them and the targets they sought to attack. Had the Germans been more mindful in targetting airfields and factories, as they did during the BoB, the damage inflicted could have been greater. Particularly on bomber airfields in Suffolk and Lincolnshire. The British were fortunate the Germans did not have so much foresight to really appreciate what could have been achieved.
There is so much wrong with the scenario, the Luftwaffe is going to attack ships at sea, not in ports, harder to hit moving targets and requiring better intelligence to know when the ships come within range. The defenders will know exactly when and where. Cairo to Adaban is around 1,000 miles but the Germans will get there in weeks, capture the pipeline intact and/or the refineries or at least lightly damaged. And then will have the tanker capacity to take the fuel across the Mediterranean, ship it across Europe then on more tankers Norway.2) Starting Mediterranean action in October 1942, my friend and I unanimously calculate that French Northwest Africa would fall within two weeks (making "Torch" impossible) and the British defended Middle East within months, thus the Axis receiving control over the Abadan oilfields and the pipelines leading to Mediterranean harbors.
All your questions have veen answered in the past and besides you can always read hermans book.The Germans had several different recon cameras, as did the British.
However one of the standard German cameras was a huge sucker.
It used a 12 in x 12 in negative (or the metric equivalent.) and went around 160lbs or more when installed in an airplane.
The standard British camera used a negative about 1/4 the size. Using an appropriate lens the British camera could make an image where the details were the same size as the German camera (same detail) but each negative only covered area about 1/4 the size.
Many photo recon planes used multiple cameras. two cameras were often mounted so they over lapped images. The cameras didn't take the "paired" photos at exactly the same time but staggered them so the photo interpreters could look at two or more images of the same "detail" from slightly different perspectives, without the photo plane having to fly repeated parallel courses. (which was sometimes done).
Bf 109s did use the big camera but it was far from ideal.
View attachment 657774
that is the just the film magazine.
View attachment 657775
That is a compete camera but without the mount.
I don't know if the backseater could change film magazines in flight or not.
Some of the Do 17/Do 215 and other bombers used for recon used two or three of the big cameras in the bomb bay.
You could modify a Fw 187 to be a photo recon plane but like many of the other proposed modified FW 187, something needs to be taken out or performance suffers.
Like the vaunted maneuverability of the Fw 187. Yeah, with Jumo 210s it could out maneuver a 109. Now, without changing the wing, lets add hundreds of kg of engines, more coolant. bigger propellers and so on and then see what the wing loading would be? All the Fw 187 fans want the extra speed, they don't want to admit that some other qualities might be reduced.
I have the book.All your questions have veen answered in the past and besides you can always read hermans book.
All fw187 proposed versions, especially the single seaters, had excellent wing and power loadinds. And the wing, although a 30 s design, had demonstrated good handlind.
The ailerons ,as the book reports, could have been improved by the development work on fw190s ailerons
Hi all!
buffnut453 :
"Finally, exactly what critical targets will be hit in Scotland?"
The goal is to reach the North Channel and cause carnage to crucial-for-British-warfare shipping there.
"Aside from anything else, the only way the Luftwaffe could generate any sizeable force would be by removing units from the Eastern Front....and that's simply impractical."
You did not read the prerequisitions. There is peace or armistice in the East after Hitler was toppled.
Only an German emergency force is left in the East.
Thumpalumpacus :
"I think "his friend" has already read every reply in this thread."
I believe he does't even know about this place. I tell him "there is an international forum..."
"1) Transporting those troops and then supplying them through a Mediterranean Sea heavily contested by the Royal Navy"
Allied naval and aerial force was not able to stop Axis troops taking Tunisia. They also never stopped Rommel from operating. He was able to do a 2.600 km retreat from El Alamein to Tunisia without an Allied force sincerely hampering him and his troops.
2) Producing the fuel used to mount the drive to Abadan, which is about 1500 miles by road from Cairo"
Germany can use a greater portion of the Rumanian production for this, if there is no fuel consumption in the East. Even Stalin could be asked to give some (I wrote this already).
"3) Getting the oil or refined products back will require tankers to either cross the same Med
They controlled both ends of the Med, and Suez was going to be a tough a nut to crack, as their troops in NA would be falling back on their supply lines and they could call upon units in Palestine and the Levant for reinforcement."
I said the British were lucky because their positions in Egypt and Iraq were never sincerely contested. Had this been, anybody would have seen how difficult it is using the Red Sea and the Persian Gulf as supply lines.
"Then, too, you must convince Hitler to not invade Russia. Given that this was a basic premise of his Lebensraum aim, that seems like a pretty big hurdle."
No, Sir. You also did not read the prerequisitions. Hitler is toppled in September 1942 and there is peace or armistice in the East.
J Jabberwocky :
"If there's no major danger in the Southeast, it's pretty easy to pivot North."
Yes, this is what I think too. But how to convince my friend about this? One effort two sections below.
BiffF15 :
"It will save you A LOT of time arguing a false argument."
I am discussing with my friend since 13 years already. Go figure!
E EwenS , TKdog, Geoffrey Sinclair:
I translated your writings to German and shall forward them to my friend. He still will not believe RAF and USAAF to keep 20.000 fighters in Scotland. But you show there are a lot of opportunities to establish a sufficient fighter force there, if necessary.
*Special thanks for best answers, top is Geoffrey Sinclair's!*
nuuumannn : Well, my friend and I used the same book, the German version of course. For I do not believe Griehl and Dressel produced books of different content in German and English language, I must do a meticulous comparison to show why we come to a very different assessment as you do. This may need to start a new topic about this.
@All:
Another prerequisition: By a lucky incidence, Germany withdraws her U-Boat force in May 1943, so the terrible losses of that time would not happen. In autumn, a renewed German submarine force, using improved types, would join the Luftwaffe in attacks on Allied Atlantic shipping.
Many thanks once more, and best regards,
RT
Another prerequisition: By a lucky incidence, Germany withdraws her U-Boat force in May 1943, so the terrible losses of that time would not happen. In autumn, a renewed German submarine force, using improved types, would join the Luftwaffe in attacks on Allied Atlantic shipping.
Thumpalumpacus :
"I think "his friend" has already read every reply in this thread."
I believe he does't even know about this place. I tell him "there is an international forum..."
"1) Transporting those troops and then supplying them through a Mediterranean Sea heavily contested by the Royal Navy"
Allied naval and aerial force was not able to stop Axis troops taking Tunisia. They also never stopped Rommel from operating. He was able to do a 2.600 km retreat from El Alamein to Tunisia without an Allied force sincerely hampering him and his troops.
2) Producing the fuel used to mount the drive to Abadan, which is about 1500 miles by road from Cairo"
Germany can use a greater portion of the Rumanian production for this, if there is no fuel consumption in the East. Even Stalin could be asked to give some (I wrote this already).
"3) Getting the oil or refined products back will require tankers to either cross the same Med
They controlled both ends of the Med, and Suez was going to be a tough a nut to crack, as their troops in NA would be falling back on their supply lines and they could call upon units in Palestine and the Levant for reinforcement."
I said the British were lucky because their positions in Egypt and Iraq were never sincerely contested. Had this been, anybody would have seen how difficult it is using the Red Sea and the Persian Gulf as supply lines.
"Then, too, you must convince Hitler to not invade Russia. Given that this was a basic premise of his Lebensraum aim, that seems like a pretty big hurdle."
No, Sir. You also did not read the prerequisitions. Hitler is toppled in September 1942 and there is peace or armistice in the East.
So the scenario is when the Germans look like they are about to win on the Eastern Front in September 1942, just before the grind at Stalingrad happens, while the German advance is mainly being held up by supply issues, the Germans change government, withdraw to the pre invasion borders, and begin deployment of the army within weeks to North Africa and beyond, assured by the treaty signed by Stalin he would not take advantage of the major improvement in the Red Army's position and major decrease in the German Army's, at least not during 1943, instead he will supply the German war machine with important items, like oil. So when 8th Army attacks on 23 October 1942 it is defeated with the help of the German troops arriving from the USSR. The largest number of personnel sent to North Africa in a single month was 20,968 in March 1941, so the treaty with the USSR is required before the German summer offensive to have any chance of essentially doubling the size of the Africa Korps by October. But at the same time the Germans are moving tens of thousands of troops with their equipment into French North Africa to be in place before 8 November 1942, when Operation Torch historically began. Now add the major increase in Luftwaffe strength, at least fighters, and associated supplies to counter the RAF and arriving USAAF. Rommel noted how badly his offensive ability was degraded by allied airpower.Another prerequisition: By a lucky incidence, Germany withdraws her U-Boat force in May 1943, so the terrible losses of that time would not happen. In autumn, a renewed German submarine force, using improved types, would join the Luftwaffe in attacks on Allied Atlantic shipping.
Serviceability of the Heinkel He 177, quotings from Griehl/Dressel, German version:
By end of 1942, He 177 using DB 606 engines was service-ready (p. 24-26, 53). The engine's operating time reached 130 hours (p. 59).
By end of 1943, He 177 using DB 610 engines was service-ready (p. 148/149). Troubles with this engine mainly had resulted from troubles with the single DB 605 engine.
3) An essay about what were the troubles of the He 177 and how to solve them, if the Germans had tried to systematically work on them.
Best regards,
RT