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To be fair, until well into 1942, many of the german fighhters in the theatre were still the Me 109Es. It was really only after the introduction of the SpitVs that the germans found it necessary to feed in Me109Fs to the battle. I dont think (but am not sure) that there were any 109Gs in the med before the end of the year.
I am not sure that Malta can be seen as any sort of fair comparison. Malta was an island under siege, with the local forces heavily outnumbered most of the time, and easily the most bombed location on earth up to that time. The RAF was forced to operate under the most challenging conditions, but still returned a very creditable repply to the Axis attacks.
For what period/area? (Malta+naval?)
When on Earth were they "heavily outnumbered" - the same silly story as Fighter Command being "outnumbered" in 1940? They did poorly, but thats all, its far more correct to say they were outnumbered at times, however, most of the time there was a single 109 Gruppe or so in Sicily, which kept shooting down RAF fighters and bombers, practically without losses in the beginning. They were outmatched, technically and tactically, but not outnumbered.
You also have to ask yourself why if the Spitfires were ineffective against the Me109, did 7 bombers need an escort of 65 fighters?
Did it ever occured to you that the 7 bombers were just a bait to get Spitfires up, and then shoot them down with an overwhelming escort...? Obviously bombing wasn't a goal here - not with 7-8 bombers when they could have deployed far more at that time to bomb effectively- it was the get RAF fighters in the air.
I will post the detaiols of the Spits delivered to the islkand later tonite, beginning in March 1942. Any axis losses suffered prior to April 1942 were due to hurricanes, since the first deliveries of Spits to the island in March were decimated by well timed Axis ground strikes. It was effectively May before Spits were in action effectively.
So it was 45 Hurricanes and 148 Spitfires lost in the air against 64 Bf 109s lost (and three 110) as per the earlier post.
Did it ever occured to you that the 7 bombers were just a bait to get Spitfires up, and then shoot them down with an overwhelming escort...? Obviously bombing wasn't a goal here - not with 7-8 bombers when they could have deployed far more at that time to bomb effectively- it was the get RAF fighters in the air.
KF's reasoning that all Spitfires were destroyed in the air is completely erroneous: poor organisation on the ground for the first delivery of 47 Spitfires off USS Wasp ("Operation Calender" 20 April) led to most of them being stranded on the airfields while the Luftwaffe was left free to bomb and ground strafe. Result was by 22 April 9 had been destroyed on the ground with 26 badly damaged by bomb splinters. This was rectified by the time the next delivery of 64 Spitfires from the Wasp and Eagle (Operation Bowery 8 May) and the Spitfires were able to meet the Luftwaffe and Regia Aeronautica raids in far larger numbers. .
To be fair to Kurfurst, the figures of 148 Spits and 45 Hurricanes are the ones lost in the air and exclude those destroyed on the ground.
I think it would be more accurate to say 144 spitfires in exchange for everything else they (the spits) shot down), which is likley to include included 82 Me109s and 97 Ju88s. They must also be assumed to have shot down a large proportion of the 97 Italian fighters, and an unknown number of Italian bombers.
Yes, Malta and the naval operation around it.
Considerable naval operations (Operation Harpoon, Vigorous, Pedestal etc.) were in the area, which came under heavy LW/RA attacks, and AAA and Fleet Air Arm shot down a number of Axis aircraft in the process.
British naval AAA and Fleet Air Arm fighters alone in Harpoon in June 1942 claimed 29 axis aircraft shot down - losses which are happily attributed here to Spitfires of course, while the losses of the Fleet Air Arm and conviniently forgotten about, as are British bombers shot down by 109s and Macchis..
Hello Nikademus
thanks a lot for sharing that very interesting info!
So Spit Vs shot down 133 fighters + 134 bombers etc while losing 148 (-those shot down by AA over Sicily) Spit Mk Vs, or were those 148 Spits lost in air combat only.
Juha
Did it ever occured to you that the 7 bombers were just a bait to get Spitfires up, and then shoot them down with an overwhelming escort...? Obviously bombing wasn't a goal here - not with 7-8 bombers when they could have deployed far more at that time to bomb effectively- it was the get RAF fighters in the air.
Nope, wrong on all three accounts. You hardly find Emils with first line units by 1942, iirc some were used far up the North in remote places like Norway, most simply found their place to German OTUs. The 109Gs did make their appearance in the Med in short notice after their introduction in June, by the summer 1942. Black Six was captured in the late automn in Africa, for example.
When on Earth were they "heavily outnumbered" - the same silly story as Fighter Command being "outnumbered" in 1940? They did poorly, but thats all, its far more correct to say they were outnumbered at times, however, most of the time there was a single 109 Gruppe or so in Sicily, which kept shooting down RAF fighters and bombers, practically without losses in the beginning. They were outmatched, technically and tactically, but not outnumbered.
Besides I sense a that bit of contradiction between the select pieces of successfull intercepts, and the fact that Malta was indeed probably the most heavily bombed place on Earth. Why is that in all the examples presented, probing raids of Ju 88s are "forced" to turn back, and drop their bombs into the sea, yet at the same, somehow, it is unfair to make a comparison because the LW bombed the airfields and docs so heavily..