Bf109E cockpit colour

[stona]

At least one of the dark cockpits photographed in 1940 was a repaint but not in that sense.
This is that of Werner Bartels,shot down on 24th July 1940. There are some good photographs showing both the dark colour of the interior and the dark colour on the retro fitted "heavy" canopy framing. Although the aircraft was an E-1,W.Nr.6296F the clue is in the F. This stood for "flugklar" and indicated an aircraft that had been repaired and cleared for a return to operations. The cockpit may well have been repainted at this time.

Noone can say unequivocally that this colour is RLM 66. I'll happily say that it is not RLM 02. The most likely colour for a cockpit interior not in RLM 02 must be RLM 66 which was already in use in various other aircraft.
For example,the Ju 88 dragged out of a lake and currently being restored in Norway had an indisputably RLM 66 interior. It had the W.Nr.0880119 and first flew in January 1940. You can see it here http://www.ju88.net/

Steve

 

[clinton78]

It would be nice to find out when that particular airframe had it's major repair work undertaken. Because then we would at least know at what point the repair depot deemed it necessary to repaint the cockpit interior from RLM02 to RLM66. That would mean that by this point RLM66 was in fact the favoured colour for Bf109 interiors.

 

[Rogi]

It would be nice to find out when that particular airframe had it's major repair work undertaken. Because then we would at least know at what point the repair depot deemed it necessary to repaint the cockpit interior from RLM02 to RLM66. That would mean that by this point RLM66 was in fact the favoured colour for Bf109 interiors.

Or it could be they just used whatever color was on hand, because its better to use something that looks like the standard/a grey than something that is bare. I know of a couple cases where when your missing a specific color in the inventory you just replace it with another because its more convienient at the time, than using nothing at all. You don't have to re-paint the complete interior, usually whatever section is missing the color or used as a replacement.

Grey is grey, as you sugested
"The amount of hassle it would be to repaint a cockpit interior during a intensive air war. It just doesn't make sense and why would they bother? "

A shortage of a specific color would probobly fit into that statement too, if you dont have RLM 02 and your bomber division has RLM 66, why not use that?

 

[clinton78]

Thing is I can't see there being a shortage of any colour at that stage of the war. Especially at a factory or major repair depot. I agree that it could be any old grey, just like the upper surface greens could have been any old green.... But we know that was not the case. The evidence is there for this dark application of paint to be RLM66. It was available and in use during this period for this specific purpose on other aircraft. If you was a betting man what RLM colour would you say it was Rogi?

 

[stona]

The Luftwaffe repair system was a bit unweildy. An aircraft that had had the sort of repairs to reclassify as "flugklar" was not repaired at the operational level even at "Operational Airfield Command" level where some compromises,particularly at unit level might be accepted. This aircraft had effectively left the Luftwaffe and been repaired by an aircraft manufacturer or one of the specialist repair,salvage and overhaul firms. Once maintenance was completed it was then returned to the Luftwaffe and ultimately supplied to a unit.
Compromises in any aspect of the repairs at this level are not likely,particularly as early as 1940.
RLM 66 is known to have been applied as an interior colour by 1940 and as such must have been an acceptable alternative to RLM 02 as far as the Luftwaffe and RLM were concerned. It seems likely to me that wherever the work was carried out on Bartel's aircaft,that facility was using RLM 66 as the interior cockpit colour and that's what was applied. The simple answer is often the correct one
Cheers
Steve

 

[destrozas]

first, I apologize for my stupidity confudi the appearance of the Friedrich Gustav, true model f appeared between 1939 and 1940.
for interior color according L.Dv distaminaba 521/1de 1938 that color was the RLM02, in November 1941 an evaluation of the ordinance L.Dv 521/1 was the RLM66 color.

 

[stona]

There are numerous examples of things not being painted as we would expect from the documentation.
It is evident from recovered parts and airframes as well as photographs that RLM 66 was being applied as an interior colour a long time before November 1941.
I don't really care what the documents say when I can look at a Ju 88 A-1,in its original paint, that first flew in January 1940,was lost into a Norwegian lake four months later and stayed there until recently which was incontrovertably painted with an RLM 66 cockpit. Incidentally the He 111,also lost in 1940 and recovered in 2006,currently to be seen at Gardmoen in Norway also had an RLM 66 interior. That's two major manufacturers (Junkers and Heinkel) inconveniently using RLM 66 two years before the RLM made it's use official.
I've already posted a picture of Bartel's Bf 109 E-1 with RLM 66 interior and canopy frames. That aircraft had to be painted before July 24th 1940 when it fell into British hands!
You have to believe what you see,not the documentation. The revision to the 1938 Luftwaffen Dienstvorschriften from 1941 was sanctioning practices which were already being carried out. Not only RLM 66 interiors but the new RLM 74/75/76 camouflage scheme were both being applied well before November 1941.
Cheers
Steve

 

[Rogi]

Thing is I can't see there being a shortage of any colour at that stage of the war. Especially at a factory or major repair depot. I agree that it could be any old grey, just like the upper surface greens could have been any old green.... But we know that was not the case. The evidence is there for this dark application of paint to be RLM66. It was available and in use during this period for this specific purpose on other aircraft. If you was a betting man what RLM colour would you say it was Rogi?

There are a couple assumptions we could make on the color, I guess the only real way of getting the "exact" color is to send it in for a lab test, it could then asses the information and tell you what type of color it is. The assumption as to whichever color comes down to a couple factors, how well we can see the color on the computer screen, the amount of weather and wear and tear it has taken in it's lifetime. What ratio the factory has mixed or received the colors in. Just like every paint manufacturer that does paint for models has diffrent shades of something today, Tamiya's RLM 66 won't be the same as Model Masters or Gunze. Nor is Tamiya's called RLM 66.


The Axis forces (Romania, Hungary, Croatia etc) that used the Bf-109 did re-paint their aircraft with whatever is on hand, interior and exterior, I don't see why that would be a diffrent case for Germany in the field,

now if it came from the factory and not from the field (since I was originally suggesting parts from the field, repair work etc and not the factory). There could be many arguements made to and against RLM 66, Diffrent companies painting aircraft used different shades,quality of the paint itself through time. just like Tamiya, Gunze etc mix up diffrent shades now a days. Am I argueing for RLM 02 or RLM 66 on certain models, no, I'm just stating that there are possibilitys that can effect the color of an aircraft from my view here and your photo graph of the Bf-109 in the Museum (color photo), the color itself to me looks black along with a lot of wear and tear to the side sections.

P.S. I commonly remind myself of watches and how if you have a colored bezel it will fade through time mostly a Grey fades almost to a black and orange fades to a cinnamon in not only cheaper quality watches but better known brands as well, once they test the paint samples and find the one that is better quality they tweak the color a little so it can last. There are also some older model Tudor Submariners (Rolex's lil sister company) from the 60s and 70s that had originally Solid Blue bezels, usually when searching for them on the local watch forums, they appear a blue-grey color to the bezel itself.

 

[stona]

German paint shades varied much less than you might suppose. This was in no small measure due to the adoption of the Ikarol laquers developed by Warnecke and Bohm. These were manufactured under licence by numerous manufacturers,some previously competitors to W+B,using W+Bs formulae.The various manufacturers did not make paints to their own,different,formulae.
Of course there were variations in batches and later in the war some were reformulated due to material shortages. We should just be careful about assuming that there were wide variations as a matter of course.

There is plenty of anecdotal evidence for aircraft being touched up or having minor repairs with the materials at hand. Even at unit level this would be carried out by skilled men,they might well compromise on colour.We know that aircraft were sometimes recamouflaged in theatre,sometimes with locally mixed colours. This is contrary to both RLM instructions and Luftwaffe orders. It happened though.

For more major repairs,for which the aircraft left the Luftwaffe and were effectively returned to "industry" such compromises are unlikely. The aircraft would eventually have to be returned to,and be accepted by, the Luftwaffe. The companies doing the work wanted to have their invoices paid. They had to do the work to a satisfactory standard. There might have been a war on but this was a commercial arrangement not some kind of patriotic duty.

I don't know what colour is on the panel photograhed and posted in the original post. It is seventy years old,I don't know how it has been stored or where it was found. I know it has had a coat of varnish applied. However such a major repaint was almost certainly done as part of a major overhaul,upgrade or repair. That was not done by the Luftwaffe. For that reason I believe an approved colour would have been applied. The only two colours which were either approved or known to be applied in German cockpits in 1940 were RLM 02 and RLM 66.
That doesn't mean that it isn't RLM 22 it's just a matter of the balance of probabilities.

Cheers

Steve

 

[destrozas]

The RLM 66 was used from about 1933 and not only for indoor in other planes but following the theme do not argue or explain anything but the RLM66 in Emil's not used to the cabins, the first 109 painted in RLM66 think it was the F2 that was the first version of make, model and manufactured in such specifications and not the F1 was a remodel of a model where E models remotorizaban reformed and a standard, I have found no information to show that they were painted or were painted just my opinion.

 

[clinton78]

But there is plenty of visual information in this topic to suggest otherwise....

 

[stona]

But there is plenty of visual information in this topic to suggest otherwise....

Exactly.
Emils with dark colored cockpits. Emils with dark colour on everything above the cockpit sill. New or retro fitted "heavier" canopy frames in RLM 66. Evidence for all of them,you have to believe your eyes.

The 74/75/76 camouflage scheme was also not officially introduced until the revision of the 1938 Luftwaffen Dienstvorschriften In 1941. Do you believe that Messerschmitt were not applying that scheme months earlier?

A couple of details.

The F-1s were entirely new build given production blocks at Mtt Reg and WNF.

The F-2s started production as early as 11/40 at AGO and early in 1941 at various other plants. These you think did have an RLM 66 interior yet we are still 9 or 10 months BEFORE the official instruction to apply this. If F-2s predated the change then why not F-1s,repaired or salvaged Es or even new built Es from some facilities?

The entire F series was powered by the DB 601 series engine,like the Emil. The DB 601 N for the F-1 and F-2. As for the F-3,few were built but like the F-4,they were powered by the DB 601 E.

Cheers

Steve

 

[clinton78]

I don't think the application of RLM66 in Bf109E cockpit interiors was particularly widespread. Well not to the point that all Bf109Es produced after a certain date had their interiors catergorically painted in RLM66. It could be that only certain manufacturers or repair depots were using it from mid-late 1940 but to suggest that it was impossible and did not happen is being far too narrow minded. Luftwaffe paints, camouflage, and markings go far beyond what it states in the official RLM documents. There will always be photographs that contradict the official rules....

 

[stona]

I don't think the application of RLM66 in Bf109E cockpit interiors was particularly widespread. Well not to the point that all Bf109Es produced after a certain date had their interiors catergorically painted in RLM66. It could be that only certain manufacturers or repair depots were using it from mid-late 1940 but to suggest that it was impossible and did not happen is being far too narrow minded. Luftwaffe paints, camouflage, and markings go far beyond what it states in the official RLM documents. There will always be photographs that contradict the official rules....

Again, I agree with you.
When I make a model of an Emil I would have RLM 02 as my default interior colour without some evidence to the contrary. The RLM seems to have exerted less control than,say,the British Air Ministry,which makes the Luftwaffe more interesting.

Cheers

Steve

 

[destrozas]

Following the information search found these two pictures in two differnt books, is my first of a and you can clearly see that the interior is RLM02 and the second is a deposit of E7 cells where you see that are painted a darker color and oddly enough is green, is anticorrosion treatment that gave all parties more vulnerable, especially those who were destined to Mediterranean.
zinc chromate green as early versions of the Fw 190 Llevana not paint in the cockpit but an anticorrosion primer according to this author.
I'm reiterating my position and not another until 1941 did not have a standard interior painting, there was only one standard for colors used for both indoor and outside if an editor inside painted RLM 66 was as valid as another I painted the RLM 02 or idifierente rlm61 was from 1941 but could only use a specific color almost exclusively for the cockpit RLM 66, RLM 02 for the rest of interior and zinc chromate green as basic primer for those who would especially one arid environments or dusty.
I've never tried to say that the RLM 02 was the only color that was used rather that not only were the RLM 02 and RLM 66 but until 1941 the variety is very high in the colors used.

As I always say you can be wrong and not know, no one has the absolute truth.
A major cornices that I have since I've been on this forum is to learn and what better way

 

[stona]

The greenish primer was a type of zinc chromate primer,though quite different to those used in the US. It's RLM designation was 7102.-. It was previously designated "aviation light metal primer green 201". This and the aluminium finish 7105.01 belong to lacquer group 03.The primer in those cockpits was just that,a primer. There were other primers in other laquer groups.
Cheers
Steve