Bf109E cockpit colour

[ellis995]

Hi guy's

I have looked for the right "GREY" colour for the cockpit of the Bf109E.

some sites on the internet say RLM02 which looks to light and some pics look like tank grey, as the latter is what i was going to use.

Your help and views are needed

 

[kgambit]

It depends on the E model and the time period.

In general:

"Reichsluftministrium (RLM) regulations state that prior to November 1941, cockpits/crew areas were to be RLM Green-Gray 02, with the exception of instrument panels, which were Gray with black instrument faces. After November 1941, all cockpit/crew areas visible through the glazing (windows) were to be RLM Black-Gray 66.

Bf109B thru E-3 series: Cockpit areas are RLM Green-Gray 02
Bf109E-4 thru K series: Cockpit areas are RLM Black-Gray 66"

From:

Luftwaffe Painting Orders

And as always exceptions are the rule.

 

[ellis995]

Thanks kgambit

i'll give the 02 colour a try

 

[B-17engineer]

Yea. 02 was used in MOST aircraft before 1942... I think...

 

[pbfoot]

here's apic of a 109e4 interior

 

[Airframes]

Definitely RLM02 Keith, including the 109E4, which was in service priopr to the RLM order of Nov '41. The pic posted by PB is as near as you'll get. RLM02 could vary in tone between a straight grey, the familiar grey green, and a shade that could appear more of a sandy green, depending on factory, batch etc etc.

 

[vikingBerserker]

Nice!

 

[Wayne Little]

Agree with Terry!

 

[ellis995]

Thanks guy's
i have a grey that is a near match for the grey in the pic ( thanks for the pic pbfoot )

 

[stona]

I don't believe the colour in the picture posted is original.It looks like a restoration to me and I've peered at some originals. If a restoration it is not really relevant. Furthermore I suspect it is a modern interpretation of RLM66 not RLM02 which was much lighter and had a greenish hue,particularly early in the war before the RLM felt obliged to send memos to paint manufacturers advising them not to worry about the variations in this colour that were being noticed.
Go with RLM02 and noone will say you are wrong. Be aware that RLM66 was appearing in aircraft interiors way before the official 1941 order(just as mixed greys were appearing on upper surface camouflage.) Guttorm will confirm its presence in the Norwegian (1940) Ju88s for example.There is no RLM02 inside their crew areas. Crashed enemy aircraft reports on Bf109Es from the BOB often note a dark grey (presumably RLM66) on cockpit sills and the areas above and behind the pilots shoulders including the armour. Also black or dark grey floors. Nothing is ever black and white, or dark and light grey!
Steve

 

[pbfoot]

I don't believe the colour in the picture posted is original.It looks like a restoration to me and I've peered at some originals.

what originals pray tell?

 

[stona]

Not complete cockpits,is there an unrestored E anywhere? I am aware of several partial airframes like the one in India. Numerous parts which littered the southern counties. The head armour often survived intact. Original colours can be found on many parts ,now called artefacts, recovered at the time or subsequently. They are held in various collections both private and public like the excellent BOB museum in Kent.
My point about restorations is that whilst I applaud the effort and research that goes into them they are not relevant when seeking contemporary colour data.
Steve

 

[pbfoot]

Not complete cockpits,is there an unrestored E anywhere? I am aware of several partial airframes like the one in India. Numerous parts which littered the southern counties. The head armour often survived intact. Original colours can be found on many parts ,now called artefacts, recovered at the time or subsequently. They are held in various collections both private and public like the excellent BOB museum in Kent.
My point about restorations is that whilst I applaud the effort and research that goes into them they are not relevant when seeking contemporary colour data.
Steve

not withstanding that paint changes over the decades so even the paint on artifacts could be faded

 

[piet]

I don't believe the colour in the picture posted is original.It looks like a restoration to me and I've peered at some originals. If a restoration it is not really relevant. Furthermore I suspect it is a modern interpretation of RLM66 not RLM02 which was much lighter and had a greenish hue,particularly early in the war before the RLM felt obliged to send memos to paint manufacturers advising them not to worry about the variations in this colour that were being noticed.
Go with RLM02 and noone will say you are wrong. Be aware that RLM66 was appearing in aircraft interiors way before the official 1941 order(just as mixed greys were appearing on upper surface camouflage.) Guttorm will confirm its presence in the Norwegian (1940) Ju88s for example.There is no RLM02 inside their crew areas. Crashed enemy aircraft reports on Bf109Es from the BOB often note a dark grey (presumably RLM66) on cockpit sills and the areas above and behind the pilots shoulders including the armour. Also black or dark grey floors. Nothing is ever black and white, or dark and light grey!
Steve

I am with Stona,
its way to dark for RLM02 and to light for a original RLM66

Piet

 

[pbfoot]

just curious are you using the original paint chips or just going off what Humbrol, Testors or Tamiya decree as correct

 

[piet]

just curious are you using the original paint chips or just going off what Humbrol, Testors or Tamiya decree as correct

No i use Gunze Sangyo Mr Color.

piet.

 

[Airframes]

I'd agree that the colour in PB's pic is too light for RLM66, but it's not too dark for RLM02. Although there is a very strong possibility that this is a restoration re-paint on the airworthy '109E, and PB will know much more about this, as he works with the aircraft in question, it does appear to be very close to one of the versions or RLM 02 used in the early stages of WW2. As previously mentioned, this colour (RLM02), always a contentious issue among modellers, can be witnessed in a grey, as in the pic, the green grey as used as an upper surface (exterior) camouflage colour, and as an almost beige, sandy green hue, among others!
The bottom line is, depending on scale of course, if it looks right, it is right!
Personally, I think many modellers get too hung up on actual shades and, even matching to original colour chips, as Humbrol did nearly forty years ago with the introduction of their 'Authentic colour' range, will not neccessarily provide the 'right look' of a particular colour on a model. Scale, physical size, shape etc all have a bearing on the appearnce of a finished model's colour. As an example, I have (somewhere) a 1/24th scale model of a Land Rover I once used in the Army, which I painted using (thinned) genuine NATO Green IR paint. The result? The model looks far too dark, due to the overall physical size displaying the actual, genuine colour.
The Bf109E in the RAF Museum, although restored, retains some of the original paint in the cockpit and, when other areas were re-painted internally, this was matched as closely as possible. That colour, when I had the opportunity to view it years ago, is very similar to the shade shown in PB's pic, and is, supposedly, if we go off RLM directives and Luftwaffe painting instructions, RLM02. Perhaps an example of the variations in paint shade, batch variations, source of production, conditions when applied etc etc?

 

[kgambit]

Personally, I think many modellers get too hung up on actual shades .......

Understatement of the decade!

I just checked my paints. I have three different bottles of RLM 02 - one is Polly Scale, one is MM Acryl and the other is Vallejo and there are no two of them that are the same. They're all close but you can see obvious differences in shades between them.

 

[pbfoot]

I really have no clue as to the right shade but am curious as to who has the skills and technical tools to deem what is correct or what isn't . In my mind the brightness and type of light change as well as the physical surroundings will alter the appearance of any shade . I'm not stating my photo is correct but its certainly a point in the correct direction as I'm assuming of the resto process paint would be the easiest and cheapest phase

 

[stona]

I find myself agreeing with you both. I often tell people that (on a model) any dark grey will approximate RLM66 and we certainly do get over concerned about the exact colours. I am only too aware of the vagaries of time and weather on original paint and noone can ever be sure what a sixty year old aircraft laquer originally looked like , I certainly don't claim any such ability. I take pbfoots point about a restoration photo being a decent pointer, if its from the aircraft I think it is a very good job has been done. In any case it's a tremendous picture of the cockpit in question. I just want modellers to be aware that not all restorations,for whatever reason, are done so sympathetically. It wasn't my aim to upset anyone! Apologies if I did.
Steve