Bf109E cockpit colour

[Airframes]

No probs Steve, don't think you upset anyone, certainly not me anyway! I know what you mean about some restorations not being as 'symapthetic', or put another way, accurate! It seems prevalent among the P51 fraternity, where quite often, equipment fit, colours etc might be accurate, but not relevant to the aircraft scheme/identity depicted. But then, this may be personal choice. As Spencer Flack is reputed to have said to someone who complained that his Spit XIV (the old G-Fire) shouldn't be painted red, but camouflaged 'Oh, and what colour is your Spit then?' !!!

 

[clinton78]

Hi guys,

This particular example was built as a Bf109E-4 at Messerschmitt AG (Mtt Reg.) between September and October 1940. Notice the very dark almost black interior colour. It even looks too dark to be RLM66. Surrounding that, RLM02 primer on the hidden interior parts...

Source: Own Photo.

 

[stona]

I'd say that was RLM 66,it is consistent with other examples which I have seen.That example is more than seventy years old,who knows exactly what that laquer looked like when it was first applied?

Great picture by the way

Steve

 

[clinton78]

Perhaps I should have added that this example has had a clear coat varnish applied to stop it flaking. Might of enhanced the RLM66 darker because of the glossy effect. Glad you like it.

 

[Crimea_River]

Great info and thanks for posting. Where is this sample located?

 

[clinton78]

Lashenden Air Warfare Museum.

 

[stona]

Might of enhanced the RLM66 darker because of the glossy effect.

Could be,it does on my models

I would describe the early versions of RLM 66 as a charcoal grey with a slightly blue cast (which becomes more obvious under flash photography). The later versions,which had a different formula with fewer components were less blue and slightly yellower,or greener.s
Warnecke and Bohm's formula for Farbton 66 changed eight times from 1st December 1941 to 28th April 1942 and that's before material shortages enforced further changes later in the war. It's hardly surprising that there are variations in the exact hue.
I always say that for a model a very dark grey colour,nothing more specific than that,will do.
Cheers
Steve

 

[destrozas]

so I have understood and so we've seen in almost all documentaries, monographic and so is that until 1942 were painted RLM02 Bf109 in 1942 with the appearance of Bf109F is when he began to paint in RLM66.

 

[stona]

so I have understood and so we've seen in almost all documentaries, monographic and so is that until 1942 were painted RLM02 Bf109 in 1942 with the appearance of Bf109F is when he began to paint in RLM66.

.

It's not possible to be so dogmatic. RLM 66 was used as an internal colour by Junkers in 1940 and there is some evidence that Heinkel used it pre-war. Some Bf 109 Es which landed in England as early as the summer of 1940 had dark interiors clearly visible in photographs. It is a reasonable assumption that this was RLM 66.
The oft quoted directive from November 1941 was evidently preceded by the application of the darker colour by several manufacturers,just as Messerschmitt were applying 74/75 upper surface colours some months before the official directive of August 1941.

The Bf 109 F entered service early in 1941,not 1942. Rolf Pingel was good enough to involuntarily deliver a nice new Bf 109 F to us on 10th July 1941.

Cheers
Steve

 

[clinton78]

Bf109F was around and in combat in 1940 with an RLM71/02 Type 5 Bf109E splinter scheme. The official RLM document specifying the RLM74/75 grey type 6 splinter scheme for the Bf109F is dated 15th August 1941.

Put it this way the interior colour in the photo I posted is quite clearly not RLM02... When we have real colour surviving evidence don't believe your books or what you think you can see in a black and white photo....

 

[stona]

Bf109F was around and in combat in 1940

1941

Early Fw 190 As were certainly in the old RLM 71/02 uppers and possibly some Bf 109 Fs but the new 74/75 upper surface colours were being applied early in 1941.

Steve

 

[clinton78]

Werner Mölders flew his Bf109F-1 operationally and in combat for the first time on the 25 October 1940. On this day Hans Asmus was flying Werner Mölders old WNr.3737 Bf109E-4/N. This is recorded in Hans Asmus's own words. On that day 3737 exploded over Milebush in Marden, Kent. Asmus returned to consciousness still strapped into his seat with not much of his aircraft left around him. He luckily had enough time to unfasten his seatbelt and fall out of what was left of his seat. POW.

 

[stona]

Well we can split hairs.
There were a handful of Fs with the "Erganzungsgruppen" of JG 26 and JG 51 by November 1941,and even fewer in the hands of senior flyers at the end of October. They were intended for conversion training but obviously some got used across the Channel. We are talking about the small number of F-1s built and no unit was entirely equipped with the type.
Mtt. Reg. built 157 F-1s between August 1940 and February 1941 and it is the first of these that found there way to some units. Some got a few examples,as sort of demonstrators. Erla didn't start production until November 1940.
The first major production variant,the F-2,started to arrive at units in January 1941. Production started in November 1940 (AGO),January 1941 (WNF) and late in 1940 (Mtt Reg). A look at the Flugzeugbestand und Bewegungsmeldungen of the units based along the Channel coast shows that most were re-equipping with the new type in the spring,February-April 1941.
A Bf 109 F would have been a very,very rare sight over Southern England in 1940.
Cheers
Steve

 

[clinton78]

Agreed Steve, rare but there, racking up victories and on strength with JG51. Mölders was testing it for combat effectiveness. Anyway, good discussion.

 

[clinton78]

There's a very good chance Mölders wingman was flying the other F-1 SG+GV (Mölders was SG+GW) on the same day as it was also assigned to Stab./JG51. Asmus got left behind in Mölders old E-4/N on his own because he could not keep up with the Fs. Asmus was flying with Mölders and his wingman on that fateful day.

 

[clinton78]

Correction: Asmus and his wingman were both flying E's. I've seen it mentioned that Mölders flew the F-1 for the first time on 22 October 1940 and claimed one victory. He claimed 3 hurricanes North West of Maidstone on this day though.

 

[stona]

I think we agree that a handful of F-1s were indeed flying operationally in 1940. The dates for Molders flights seem to vary from source to source but they were indisputably in October 1940.
These aircraft were attached to the two Jagdgeschwader I mentioned for operational training which,in the hands of a man like Molders,could easily be interpreted to include sorties across the Channel
In the first months of 1941 the Fs (F-2s) would have become a relatively common sight for the RAF pilots sent on Leigh Mallory's idiotic incursions into the Continent.
Cheers
Steve

 

[Wurger]

What the Molders' flights have in common with the cockpit colours of a Bf 109E ? Please stop hijacking the thread and keep the proper track. If you want to discuss the topic please create your own thread in more relevant section.

 

[Rogi]

Couldn't they have re-painted whatever section they wanted to, in the field, with whatever color they had on hand?

 

[clinton78]

Not really a hijack, a bit of thread drift, but apologies all the same.

The amount of hassle it would be to repaint a cockpit interior during a intensive air war. It just doesn't make sense and why would they bother?