bf110 exchange ratio
- Thread starter steve51
- Start date
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Hello Basket
after all 4 rcmgs was rather standard fighter armament at the beginning of WWII, some had even lighter, for ex early I-16 (Typ 4, 5 and 6 had only 2 fast-firing 7,62mm ShKAS ) and Japanese Ki-10, Ki-27 and A5M had also only 2 rcmgs.
Appr. 1/3 of 109E production was E-1s/E-1/Bs.
On Me 210, Messerchmitt AG succeeded to fix at least the worst problems of 210 and the later longer fuselage 210s were acceptable planes. Hungarians built DB 605 engined 210Cs and were satisfied with it, it also had the longer fuselage and other mods that fixed the instability of 210. Also for ex RAF had its failures in a/c, for ex Botha and Lerwick. Also resurces spent for ex to Albemarle and Warwick were IMHO mostly wasted.
Juha
after all 4 rcmgs was rather standard fighter armament at the beginning of WWII, some had even lighter, for ex early I-16 (Typ 4, 5 and 6 had only 2 fast-firing 7,62mm ShKAS ) and Japanese Ki-10, Ki-27 and A5M had also only 2 rcmgs.
Appr. 1/3 of 109E production was E-1s/E-1/Bs.
On Me 210, Messerchmitt AG succeeded to fix at least the worst problems of 210 and the later longer fuselage 210s were acceptable planes. Hungarians built DB 605 engined 210Cs and were satisfied with it, it also had the longer fuselage and other mods that fixed the instability of 210. Also for ex RAF had its failures in a/c, for ex Botha and Lerwick. Also resurces spent for ex to Albemarle and Warwick were IMHO mostly wasted.
Juha
Hello TEC
I remember also those menacing 109s with 5 flashing guns from Siivet, Finnish edition of Ace or something like that cartoon book. But not all what one read of them was misinformation, so already in 1963 I learned that one cannot successfully turnfight with Ki-43 whose combat flaps were extended even with Spitfire.
Juha
I remember also those menacing 109s with 5 flashing guns from Siivet, Finnish edition of Ace or something like that cartoon book. But not all what one read of them was misinformation, so already in 1963 I learned that one cannot successfully turnfight with Ki-43 whose combat flaps were extended even with Spitfire.
Juha
The Basket
Senior Master Sergeant
- 3,712
- Jun 27, 2007
It was a point. On another thread....a certain member had said that the 303s were obsolete and 8 303s were obsolete...By 1940...
Forgetting to mention the weaker armament standard on his current particular cherished machine...
It was a comment which I thought was worthy of comment.
Still do.
I know the royal air force had its misses...but the Bf 210 was a full on effort aircraft which failed..which meant the 110 had to be kept going.well.past.its bedtime. The 110 is a vastly important combat type...the Luftwaffe were very lucky to have a versatile machine in its ranks.
the aircraft you mentioned are unimportant and didn't alter the war one bit.
Forgetting to mention the weaker armament standard on his current particular cherished machine...
It was a comment which I thought was worthy of comment.
Still do.
I know the royal air force had its misses...but the Bf 210 was a full on effort aircraft which failed..which meant the 110 had to be kept going.well.past.its bedtime. The 110 is a vastly important combat type...the Luftwaffe were very lucky to have a versatile machine in its ranks.
the aircraft you mentioned are unimportant and didn't alter the war one bit.
Maximowitz
Tech Sergeant
There's considerably more to the 210/410 story than that. The issues are quite complex.
Hello Basket
IMHO it is good to remind others that there were also significant number of E-1s around, no doubt of that.
It's true that 210 was designed to be crucial to LW, it was planned that it would replace both 110 and Ju 87. But to say that Botha and Lerwick were unimportant is a bit misleading, because they were, with Beaufort, which ran into troubles with its Taurus engines, were planned to replace most of CC pre-war types, Ansons, Londons, Stranraers and Wildebeests. Now the failure of them was partly covered by ordering more Hudsons but still meant that those old and inadequate planes had to serve longer than planned and surely cost lives of many merchant marines, not to speak on the fact that the torpedosqns in Singapore in Dec 41 were still equipped with Wildebeests when Japan attacked. Albemarle was a more like a backup plane and the long and troublesome development of Warwick only meant that Wellington was kept in production longer. Luckily Wimpy was a good plane and that wasn't a catastrophe.
Juha
IMHO it is good to remind others that there were also significant number of E-1s around, no doubt of that.
It's true that 210 was designed to be crucial to LW, it was planned that it would replace both 110 and Ju 87. But to say that Botha and Lerwick were unimportant is a bit misleading, because they were, with Beaufort, which ran into troubles with its Taurus engines, were planned to replace most of CC pre-war types, Ansons, Londons, Stranraers and Wildebeests. Now the failure of them was partly covered by ordering more Hudsons but still meant that those old and inadequate planes had to serve longer than planned and surely cost lives of many merchant marines, not to speak on the fact that the torpedosqns in Singapore in Dec 41 were still equipped with Wildebeests when Japan attacked. Albemarle was a more like a backup plane and the long and troublesome development of Warwick only meant that Wellington was kept in production longer. Luckily Wimpy was a good plane and that wasn't a catastrophe.
Juha
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The Basket
Senior Master Sergeant
- 3,712
- Jun 27, 2007
tail end charlie
Senior Airman
- 615
- Aug 24, 2010
I think everyone expected things to work straight away, many of the early planes in the war were good from the start they were all much better than the interwar designs. However towards the end of the war making big jumps in power and performance became harder and harder. Designers coming up against problems that were harder to solve and some problems they didnt even think of.
davebender
1st Lieutenant
The Me-210 prototype didn't fly until September 1939. By then Germany was fighting WWII. Like many weapons systems in many nations the Me-210 was rushed into production without adequate testing because it was needed ASAP. Without a war raging aircraft like the Me-210, Typhoon and B-29 would have their teething problems fixed before being placed into production.
Frantish
Airman 1st Class
It is pretty much covered here, but will toss my hat in.
As long as 110's did not engage in turn fights, and work in team, and of course engaged with position advantage they dominated.
The center line weapons arrangement was lethal to range (not unlike P-38).
And it was slightly faster then just about any allied fighter in the area except Spitfire and I believe Dewotine 520.
OTOH, it would be in trouble if Hurri got on its tail close enough, that is if the speed difference was close, the 110 could not pull away fast enough before it suffered performance degrading damage.
As long as 110's did not engage in turn fights, and work in team, and of course engaged with position advantage they dominated.
The center line weapons arrangement was lethal to range (not unlike P-38).
And it was slightly faster then just about any allied fighter in the area except Spitfire and I believe Dewotine 520.
OTOH, it would be in trouble if Hurri got on its tail close enough, that is if the speed difference was close, the 110 could not pull away fast enough before it suffered performance degrading damage.
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Not during this period i'm afraid. It was tough time for the defenders.
Hurricane kills (during this period)
6 x Bf-110
12 x Ju-87
4 x Ju-88
2 x He-111
1 x Cr-42
Frantish
Airman 1st Class
double post 
OK. thanks, but what time frame, exactly are we talking about?
Maximowitz
Tech Sergeant
Not really.
There was a lot of politics involved and a constant moving of the goalposts by the RLM during the design phase. Creating an aircraft while the requirements of said machine are changed on an almost weekly basis is a recipe for disaster.
parsifal
Colonel
I find it perplexing that the Hungarians, who produced quite a few of the me 210s were always very happy with them, whereas the LW were very unhappy….were there any differences.
Whereas the 210 was seen as a failure, the 410 was seen as quite successful. I dont get that. Visually, its hard to tell the difference between the two, and I don't think all that much needed to be done in order to fix whatever problem the 210 had.
People are saying the 110 was a cool looking aircraft. For looks alone I prefer the pugnacious looks of the Beaufighter or the Hornisse. To me the 110 looks effeminate, without the curvy grace of the Spitfire or the 109
Whereas the 210 was seen as a failure, the 410 was seen as quite successful. I dont get that. Visually, its hard to tell the difference between the two, and I don't think all that much needed to be done in order to fix whatever problem the 210 had.
People are saying the 110 was a cool looking aircraft. For looks alone I prefer the pugnacious looks of the Beaufighter or the Hornisse. To me the 110 looks effeminate, without the curvy grace of the Spitfire or the 109
Maximowitz
Tech Sergeant
You make a good point. The Hungarians were indeed very happy with the 210 - and so were more than a few German pilots, including Johannes Kaufmann, who was disappointed to return to the Bf 110.
One of the problems with the 210 was the inexperience of the crews who struggled to convert to the type.
However, this thread is about the Bf 110.... best not to derail it.
Didn't the Hungarian built 210s have the extended rear fuselage?
One way to tell a 210 from a 410 is the engine nacelles. The back of the spinner on the 210 is even with the nose while on the 410 it is in front of the nose. Not always possible to see in photos though.
One way to tell a 210 from a 410 is the engine nacelles. The back of the spinner on the 210 is even with the nose while on the 410 it is in front of the nose. Not always possible to see in photos though.
Kurfürst
Staff Sergeant
Oh, they were quite different. The troublesome series were the first 210s, the 210A, pressed into service by the RLM's pressure without aduquate testing. Everyone knew it had troubles, but some blockhead in the RLM probably got a fixation on delivery schedules.
Mtt fixed its handling cons after a while, adding long fuselage, larger tail, and leading edge slats which the first ones didn't have. That was the 210A (lang) long version. 210C was that fixed version, but with DB 605s, we produced that as 210Ca, with "a" standing for "foreign" version. The Germans simply moved to the 410, which was basically the same but with 603s.
Basically you say its like those tall, skinny model chicks without... features. And I agree.
