British Sailors seized by Iran.

plan_D said:

And you're right, Hunter. Britain though should be a world superpower, but the people - even when not left, are not capable of using their brain.

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Yup even my sister, who I love, she would not talk to me for 6 months b/c she was so pissed off at me b/c I supported USA and Iraq war when it started.

She was soooo mad at me, I just wanted to sit her down and lock her in a room with me until I conveinced her Iraq needed to be taken down.

Just like Iran needs to be taken down.


Lets all get real IMHO:

In this world you are either good or evil

Strong or weak

With us or against us

The West needs to stop being a bunch of pussies and stand up to North Korea, Iran and any other Muslim country that takes it too far.

You are either a friend or foe and should be treated as such.

or

Once in while you are a neutral, but you had better mind your own damn business then and stay neutral.

I am sooooo damn tired of all this azz kissing the west does. Just tell Iran "this is the way it is going to be.......or else" and back it up. If they don't follow through then bomb the hell out of their military, navy, ports, HQ, nuclear locations, airports, rail, bridges, radio stations and every other non-emgergency item of value related to the goverment.

Then stand back and say to the goverment of Iran "you ready to listen now?". If they say yes then we welcome them, if they say no........bomb them more. Until the goverment does not exist in meaning or they listen or the people take over the goverment.

This talking with Muslim countries just does not work the way we do it now.

Did anyone notice the lorry full of bricks conviently go past those protesting against the British embassey?

Apart from tit for tat swap of prisoners and shaming the West. What else do you think is motivating the Iranian government?

As already pointed out the younger generation in Iran are becoming more western in their outlook. Also the drug culture has become an epidemic in both high and low society. Perhaps the government feels its losing its grip and needs to whip up some anti western feeling in order to restablish firm control?

These guys will only respect a show of force. Their actions have already proved they dont respect the Geneva convention.

I honestly think it is more about fomenting anti-western dissent and establishing Iran and the great bastion of Islamic power willing to be the flag bearer. Iran holds US hostages for 444 days, supports the bombing of US Marines in Lebanon, provides direct support to embassy bombings, linked to shooting down Isreali airliners, publically renounces the Holocaust in a world forum, demands Isreal's absolute destruction with no apologies, is providing backing to Hamas and believes they have accomplished some form of sick victory in Lebanon, is training Iraqi insurgents who are admittedly causing causualties that make front page news, is building nuclear weapons and ignoring UN ultimatums, is establishing energy ties with Russia and China (who back the Iranians up in the UN Security Council), and now pluck sailors out of the water with virtual impunity.

I would say their track record is pretty damn good for establishing themselves as the hardline, no-compromise, protector of Islam in most fanatics eyes.

The problem with wars is there's always some sly idiot who exploits whatever's been laid to bear, like the oil in iraq. It's not why we went to war, but it's a big bad side effect and it's what the media just loves to portray.

The Iranians as stated earlier were very westernized and the regime of the Shah which was installed in a violent coup by the CIA (prompted by the UK) over a democratically elected government in 1953 because of the impending nationalization of the Anglo Iranian oil Company which was later known as BP. It became autocratic in rule under the Shah. Popular demonstration led to the Shahs overthrow in 73 and the leader of the populist movement Khomeni immediatly instituted an Islamic constitution .
This being said Iran has turned into pariah nation which does not deserve our respect and should be chastised severely but one wonders what would have happened if western greed had not overthrown the democratically elected government in 53

had not western influence "interfeared" then Persia would of stayed as such, in the post stone age but not by much. Millions probably would of felt the hand of the Ayatolah(s)

Remember when Khomeni was thought to be a posistive moderate influence during his exile in Paris?

Hindsight is always 20/20.

yes I do, glad the old fart is dry in the mud

Another recipient of Time's Man of the year.

Which gives me an idea All recpients of Times Man of the Year award should immediately be assainated

One wonders what we will be saying about the present regime in Iraq( if they stay in power) 5,10, 15 years from now.

bomber said:

Soilders dieing doesn't constitute a war.. it's an occupational hazzard.
Soilders getting taken hostage doesn't constitute a war, it's another occupational hazzard..

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Spoken like someone that never served a lick in their life. These British servicemen were in Iraqi waters. They get captured by Iranian forces in IRAQI waters - a third party to the conflict (formally on paper only). You say it's an occupational hazard? Was it an act of peace by the Iranians? Maybe a friendly gesture? Let me ask you this - what if the British defended themselves and a firefight ensued?

bomber said:

Plan-D good climb down there... and yes what more could the British people want from America in it's own decades long fight against terrosism ? Apart from stoping sending the IRA money and arms, their politicians supporting IRA fund raising rallys ?

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As pointed out already, the US gov't did not support the IRA. The IRA has always had a high level of support throughout the northeastern US due to the high numbers of Irish Americans and immigrants. We shall see how that turns out when Catholics begin to hopefully outnumber protestants soon.

bomber said:

Did you notice how as soon as this dried up following 9/11 how quickly the terrosism stoped ?

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Please correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't violence fallen sharply since the 1998 GFA?

bomber said:

What I object to most is the goading of British public opinions and forces to start another conflict in the region by non British persons... who should keep their noses out of it...

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That's a valid obection.

bomber said:

If the American people want a war with Muslims of the world, then they should do it themselves... because I suspect that's whats going to happen if anyone steams into Iran, The moderate muslim countries governments will have no choice but to listen to their public.

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That's the mindset that troubles me. Evil prevails when good men do nothing. That's the case here. Let's bury our heads in the sand and forget the fact that the Muslim world has been trying to destroy western Christian civilization for well over 1000 years. Thank the Franks for checking almohad advances, Tours 732, and the Polish for aiding the Austrians in the Turks 2nd siege of Vienna in 1683. Many in Europe don't have a fighting spirit anymore, they are content to grovel those attempting to destroy them while they bask in the glory of their enlightened societies. That's not the Ameircan way - and I pray this apathetic and weak leftist tide in America is on it's way out once my parents' generation rids themselves from positions of power.

bomber said:

Invade a single county run by a dictator to free it's people is one thing, but attack a democtratic muslim country because it wants nothing more than to have the same nuclear capablity as ourselves is another... and that would be the reason behind attacking, don't think in nievety it's the 15 sailors, because we'd never see them aliive again.

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Did you really type that in all seriousness???

bomber said:

I'm sorry if not having been in the military means that I don't have an opinion in your eyes as to what constitutes a war..

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You've shown you have absolutely no idea. Quite frankly, your absurd statements like "occ hazard" and the way you shrug the Iraqi war off as OOTW make me believe that you haven't the slightest clue of anything pertaining to the military.

bomber said:

I'm just Dad of 42 to a boy of 13... and if talking can get those sailors home without having to go to WWIII then I say we talk a lot longer than 48 hours !

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I am a father also. I agree that the UK should take the route of negotiations. I don't think anybody disputes that. Believe me - I want those troops to come home to you guys. However, I firmly believe that Iran is still testing the international community to see how far they can go. A nuclear Iran is perhaps the greatest threat to the global community, not just America. If the western world continues to prance around with its tail between their legs, my children will have to rectify this mess. THEN, it will be even costlier for them since we didn't have the balls to stand up to tyranny.

"As pointed out already, the US gov't did not support the IRA. The IRA has always had a high level of support throughout the northeastern US due to the high numbers of Irish Americans and immigrants. We shall see how that turns out when Catholics begin to hopefully outnumber protestants soon."

Am I right in assuming you support the IRA, mkloby? As you seem to like the idea of the Protestants being rid from Northern Ireland. Whether you do or not; I'd like to point out that anyone who supports the IRA, or the UDA, are pr*cks. And anyone who supports either of them and then goes on about this "War on Terror" are hypocritical **** suckers.

The thing that annoys me the most is that they're both Christian. And for some stupid reason; they fight against each other as civilians instead of just growing up. If they're really so bothered about British rule, then take it out on the British military...but no, they are all terrorist **** suckers, just like their supporters.

By the way, mkloby, I remember you said something quite some time ago about Britain becoming Catholic again. Not bloody likely, we'll be Muslim before then by the looks of things.

About the IRA .. I never said American governement.. I said politician, does anyone deny that politicains attended rallies

Secondly.... locking somone in a room untill they understand the Iraq situation... mmmmmmm I'm not so sure on this.

Third... Being acused on not understand the military,,, if the response to any provocation is to retaliate militarily then thankfully they're not in power or is that the next step for the West.. ?

fouth.... Sending in Special forces is something that's done on the quite, you don't broadcast it.

Fith..... When a government says it's a war, what it means is "we have to get behind our boys and not question the politcal desicisions that have placed them in harms way".. However in a free thinking democrassy it's the duty of every individual to question their governement...

But it seemly unpatriotic to question when you're in a war, doesn't it....

"I was just following orders" is not acceptable.

You guys love to get into debates about 'what would have happened if Hitler hadn't invaded Russia' and the like... well now's your chance to play that game in real time.

What would happen if the UK sailed it's fleet into Iranian waters and started an armed conflict..

Simon

"I told you so"

Hunter368 said:

Hard line Muslim's understand one thing only.....death. The problem is that the Hard liners are in charge of these other rational Muslims. Hardliners fill their minds with BS, lies, promises of a better after life.

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Not really a good comparison but it kind of reminds you of 1930s Germany does it not?

bomber said:

Third... Being acused on not understand the military,,, if the response to any provocation is to retaliate militarily then thankfully they're not in power or is that the next step for the West.. ?

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I certainly think you have no clue what is really going on the middle east and you certainly dont know what is happening militarily in the middle east either and that you have proven by argueing with people that have been there.

bomber said:

What would happen if the UK sailed it's fleet into Iranian waters and started an armed conflict..

Simon

"I told you so"

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It would cause a major war with many muslim nations but that is going to happen anyhow because of there hard line stance and there desire to destroy Isreal and the West.

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:

Not really a good comparison but it kind of reminds you of 1930s Germany does it not?

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Little bit.

This is what third world countries with Dictators do. They fill the uneducated minds with BS and what the Dictators "want them" to believe. Soon to the uneducatated that becomes reality. Not to mention they rule with an iron fist, those who do question or refuse to believe publicly get "taken care of".

Then the thousands / millions of uneducated believe what the goverment (priests) tells them is true.

Thats where we are now.

plan_D said:

"As pointed out already, the US gov't did not support the IRA. The IRA has always had a high level of support throughout the northeastern US due to the high numbers of Irish Americans and immigrants. We shall see how that turns out when Catholics begin to hopefully outnumber protestants soon."

Am I right in assuming you support the IRA, mkloby? As you seem to like the idea of the Protestants being rid from Northern Ireland. Whether you do or not; I'd like to point out that anyone who supports the IRA, or the UDA, are pr*cks. And anyone who supports either of them and then goes on about this "War on Terror" are hypocritical **** suckers.

The thing that annoys me the most is that they're both Christian. And for some stupid reason; they fight against each other as civilians instead of just growing up. If they're really so bothered about British rule, then take it out on the British military...but no, they are all terrorist **** suckers, just like their supporters.

By the way, mkloby, I remember you said something quite some time ago about Britain becoming Catholic again. Not bloody likely, we'll be Muslim before then by the looks of things.

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PD - right out of the gate I want to say NO, I CERTAINLY DO NOT SUPPORT THE IRA. NOT IN THE SLIGHTEST. There have been threads about this where I stated my position. I support the REPUBLICAN cause. The IRA, including all factions, most certainly not, as your right they do engage in terrorism. There was a time long ago when they were a partisan force, though. Since then, however their means of acheiving their end state are morally corrupt. I'm a fervent Catholic, so it should go hand in hand that I oppose the actions taken by the IRA. Unfortunately, British policy toward Ireland guaranteed the development of such unrest - Sorry. However, that by no means justifies terrorism.


The IRA had lost much support throughout the North and the Republic as their attacks caused more and more collateral damage. There were many that did think as you stated "take it out on the Brit military." When attacks were killing women, children, and innocent bystanders in order kill a single targeted individual, support waned.

My comment a while ago was about North becoming predominantly Catholic - which has been the trend. Catholics like to have more babies than you Protestant bubbas Estimates range about 40-42% I believe for the total Catholic pop of the North, which I beleive increased by 10% since 1960. Do the math - it won't take too much longer. Then, in a referendum in the North... get it? About Britain as a whole becoming Catholic... never said that, that's gibberish! Not even I am crazy enough to think something that loopy.

They look a bit sheepish. I wonder if their captors were telling them to "giggle." And the flowers and fruit give a cute, almost playschool feeling to the picture. No worries then.

Unless they put them there to splatter their brains agains't the wall by a firing squad. Or maybe some Iranians will lynch 'em and do the dirty work instead of the Goverment. They seem mad enough.

Britain wants all it military personnel back of course. But does anyone feel Iran is pressuring Britain into perhaps a "Save the White Woman" mentality? They were going to let her go, but then decided to keep her as a trump card. More pressure to get Britain to do......well what do they want Britain to do? Leave Iraq, right?

If Britain were to attack Iran over this, and someday it was made into a film, could it be called "Saving Snared Sailors?"

some guy overseas sent me this as I walked in the door about a British column writer blaming the US of A for their botched attempts in Iraq so thus the British soldiers were captured and harassed.............. ah go suck your dirty toe nails loser

That would be Piers Morgan probably.
Just don't look at him, and hope he'll go away...