Chingachgook
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Buchons, Spits, Bearcats, and a real Pilot
- Thread starter Chingachgook
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You change eneogh things on an aircraft like they did to the Buchon (which by the way in my opinion are not 109s) you are going to effect performance. I would not make a comparison of the 109 vs Spit based off of Buchon vs. Spit. Just my humble opinion though. I have not flown any of these 3 aircraft.
Hinton doesn't fly the 109 regularly, so I wouldn't trust his comments on it. Also he's known to be VERY biased I might add - just the way he reacts when you told about the slats might give you a clue to this.
Also I don't agree with your final assesment, as even Spitfire pilots claimed they couldn't out-turn the 109 at low speed.
PS: the Buchon is HEAVY and draggy comapred to the G-2. Not at all like Hinton explains it.
Also I don't agree with your final assesment, as even Spitfire pilots claimed they couldn't out-turn the 109 at low speed.
PS: the Buchon is HEAVY and draggy comapred to the G-2. Not at all like Hinton explains it.
twoeagles
Senior Airman
Careful - don't confuse turn radius with rate of turn. The smallest radius doesn't equal the fastest turn rate, which is counter-intuitive. A higher speed
higher g turn with plenty of power on is what you try to maintain - if you try for a small radius and chop power, you might get off a quick shot, but your opponent will be on your 6 in short order....
I was offered the chance to fly a Buchon 12 years ago but after a high speed taxi to see how it felt as the tail got light, I shut down and got out. The thing just scared me, and I didn't like anything about how it felt or how small the cockpit was for a 200 pound pilot.
higher g turn with plenty of power on is what you try to maintain - if you try for a small radius and chop power, you might get off a quick shot, but your opponent will be on your 6 in short order....
I was offered the chance to fly a Buchon 12 years ago but after a high speed taxi to see how it felt as the tail got light, I shut down and got out. The thing just scared me, and I didn't like anything about how it felt or how small the cockpit was for a 200 pound pilot.
Matt308
Glock Perfection
The Messer cockpit is supersmall. I'm surprised that a 200lb guy could get into it and still function.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
I know Steve Hinton, a great pilot and super nice guy.
Many opinions of modern warbird pilots are going to be a bit slanted for a number of reasons. These restored aircraft are somewhat castrated and are not really flown to their fullest operation capacity (would you want to fling White 14 {ME-109} around like toy when it's worth a few million?). I think history shows us where the performance of these aircraft really stood...
Many opinions of modern warbird pilots are going to be a bit slanted for a number of reasons. These restored aircraft are somewhat castrated and are not really flown to their fullest operation capacity (would you want to fling White 14 {ME-109} around like toy when it's worth a few million?). I think history shows us where the performance of these aircraft really stood...
Good point about the Aircraft being castrated Flyboy. Some of the equipment they used in (and needed to) airbattles has been removed (guns, armor plate, ect) making the handling in each one different based just on those facts alone. Plus, flying one of an aircraft wouldn't make you an expert on that aircraft. They're all quirky in their own way. Need lots of time in different aircraft (and different Marks or Models) to really know them.
And in WW2 birds, that must make you very rich or very, very good. IMO
And in WW2 birds, that must make you very rich or very, very good. IMO
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Chingachgook
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Chingachgook
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FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
I could tell you we've had many hours here debating FA games, sims and what have you - A game (or sim) is not a substitute for judging actual performance and pilot skill (especially for those who never flown a real aircraft)
As far as Hinton flying the Buchon regularly? No he doesn't and I know that as fact. I could tell you Steve will be biased based on the performance of the aircraft he has flown in their restored operating state and as earlier mentioned many warbirds flown around Chino have many anomalies that will never bring them up to the level of performance when they were new...
BTW I will actually be there (Chino) on Friday - If I have time I'll go by the museum and see if Steve is in town...
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Chingachgook
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FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Well I'm glad since you keep bringing it up - there are some who don't (or won't) accept the difference. Being rather new here I'm glad to see you're letting your feeling known on this...
Agree.
If I see him I'll ask him about it. I'll be there all day Friday and maybe Saturday morning...
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Chingachgook
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Chingachgook
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FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
No sweat - and you'll never see me or any of the other pilots on this board browbeating the non-pilots (unless they think they really know how to fly say a P-51 after flying sims for a year).
It's good you're reading the past posts - you'll get a feel of the membership here (and their biases
)
Il admit I am biased toward the 109 only because it is my favorite plane. Was the 109 the greatest plane since bread and butter? Absolutely not and I will be the first to admit it.
However I still would not make a comparison of the 109 to the Spit based off of flying the Buchon. It handeled differently than the Bf-109. I am going to have to find the magazine artical. I think it is also posted online. It was an interview with a guy who flew both a Buchon and a 109 and it described the differences and the Buchon was for the worse.
However I still would not make a comparison of the 109 to the Spit based off of flying the Buchon. It handeled differently than the Bf-109. I am going to have to find the magazine artical. I think it is also posted online. It was an interview with a guy who flew both a Buchon and a 109 and it described the differences and the Buchon was for the worse.
One thing that is left out in these discussions is stick force. We just did a full computer analysis and the results were surprising. If you leave stick force out, the Spitfire is far superior. When you factor in stick force it has an equalizing effect bringing the performance of different aircraft together.
Plus you need to consider how well the pilot could keep the aircraft near max AoA. The elliptical planform, while efficient, has a very violent stall. To make the Spitfire more manageable they added twist to the wing. Adding twist to the wing reduces the advantage of the elliptical wing. On the other hand the 109's slats make for a much gentler stall and allow the 109 pilot to hang right on the edge. The downside is the slats add weight where you don't want it out towards the end of the wings and add an MOI issue to roll the pilot has to deal with.
Last, both aircraft had close to the same roll rate up to 200mph, at which point the roll rate due to stick force for the Spitfire fell off. While the 109E's roll rate continued up to the mid 240mph's (mid 250mph's for the 109F) before falling off.
Factoring in stick force, the 109 could not pull max AoA at high speed, so the e bleed would be low until the speed had slowed enough to pull max AoA region, at which point it would be higher than the Spitfires. But, the Spitfire pilot would be risking a violent stall spin trying to pull lead to get a shot.
As you know, a high time Spitfire pilot would feel where they are in relation to the edge an pull it off, a low time pilot would spin. Same for the 109 pilot with a veteran using the high speed e advantage and knowing when to give up speed for rate of turn, vs a low time pilot that would burn all their e turning with a Spitfire and become a grape for the taking.
Unfortunately, there are currently no retail sim's that model any of this. With the exception of some unsupported 3rd party mods that add this.
Plus you need to consider how well the pilot could keep the aircraft near max AoA. The elliptical planform, while efficient, has a very violent stall. To make the Spitfire more manageable they added twist to the wing. Adding twist to the wing reduces the advantage of the elliptical wing. On the other hand the 109's slats make for a much gentler stall and allow the 109 pilot to hang right on the edge. The downside is the slats add weight where you don't want it out towards the end of the wings and add an MOI issue to roll the pilot has to deal with.
Last, both aircraft had close to the same roll rate up to 200mph, at which point the roll rate due to stick force for the Spitfire fell off. While the 109E's roll rate continued up to the mid 240mph's (mid 250mph's for the 109F) before falling off.
Factoring in stick force, the 109 could not pull max AoA at high speed, so the e bleed would be low until the speed had slowed enough to pull max AoA region, at which point it would be higher than the Spitfires. But, the Spitfire pilot would be risking a violent stall spin trying to pull lead to get a shot.
As you know, a high time Spitfire pilot would feel where they are in relation to the edge an pull it off, a low time pilot would spin. Same for the 109 pilot with a veteran using the high speed e advantage and knowing when to give up speed for rate of turn, vs a low time pilot that would burn all their e turning with a Spitfire and become a grape for the taking.
Unfortunately, there are currently no retail sim's that model any of this. With the exception of some unsupported 3rd party mods that add this.
pbfoot
1st Lieutenant
I think as the only one with access to both the 109 and the Spit the next time I get the opportunity I'll ask the pilots although I would'nt hold my breath as we are shut down for the winter
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Chingachgook
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Chingachgook
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