Can some of the explanation for the P-38's greater success in the Pacific be attributed to poorer Japanese pilots?

[FLYBOYJ]

They had that OTU squadron in the SW Pacific area (was it 35 FG?) that is where many of the P-38 pilots transferred from 49th FG etc. got their start, I think in the MTO they had to hit the ground running more and the air combat was on a larger scale right out of the gate.

They did of sought but the 35th FG was considered an operational unit (OTU is an RAF term) IIRC their P-38s arrived during the late summer of 42'. maintenance bugs were addressed and I believe they began flying by October/ November. As mentioned, their first major mission was at the end of December 42.'

In New Guinea weather and logistics were such a problem for both sides that the air combat ramped up kind of more gradually.

It was but looking in hindsight, the AAF was able to get things rolling, I believe it was because of their top boss General Kenny who solved a lot of logistical issues during that time period.

 

[Shortround6]

It's kind of interesting that the P-38 never really found a niche in China / Burma / India, I never fully understood why but maybe that's just because not enough were available in time.

The timing of the P-38 was troublesome.

In 1942 it was the only high performance single seat fighter the Army had, and they didn't have many of them.

by the end of 1942 (including early years) they had built
P-38= 1687
P-39= 2871
P-40= 6883
P-47= 533*
P-51= 772**

* 171 "B"s with the "C" model starting to come of the production lines in Sept 1942
** most were for the British and the US had very few but the number doesn't include A-36 production.

In 1943 they added
P-38= 2497
P-39= 4947
P-40= 4258
P-47= 4428
P-51= 1710

So they were sending the P-38s to where they thought the fighting would be hardest. 8th Air Force for much of 1943 thought they didn't need escorts.
They wanted more P-38s in North Africa/Italy and in all areas of the Pacific. They didn't have enough to go around. There were 2 (?) P-38 squadrons in the CBI area.

In 1944 they added

P-38= 4186
P-39= 1729*
P-40= 2002*
P-47= 7065
P-51= 6982

*production ended part way through the year

 

[SaparotRob]

It's kind of interesting that the P-38 never really found a niche in China / Burma / India, I never fully understood why but maybe that's just because not enough were available in time.

Twice the maintenance details?


Edit: I just read SR6's post.

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

yeah that seems possible

 

[Gary Cain]

Wow that is news to me. I wonder what versions he dealt with, and does he mean speed basically or other things?

I am not sure of the version he was up against, but he said that the P-38s low altitude turning radius was exceptional.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

I am not sure of the version he was up against, but he said that the P-38s low altitude turning radius was exceptional.

In North Africa, Fs or maybe Gs.

 

[BiffF15]

I am not sure of the version he was up against, but he said that the P-38s low altitude turning radius was exceptional.

Don't forget that the P38 doesn't face the torque issues that the SE fighters did. Flying on the edge of a stall, at low altitude is no place for a mistake in a high powered SE plane. The ground doesn't miss. With the P38 you can track the flaps a bit (increases both lift and drag) to help tighten the circle and add that the stall is not something to fear so flying to the edge doesn't have the same penalty (no torque issues).

 

[PAT303]

We're all a team! Throw out your dice and see how they roll, and if you're putting your ass on the line -- in a cockpit, in a building burning down, whatever -- someone's got your back. That's life, when done right, I reckon. We've all trusted our lives to complete strangers, and that too is part of the human condition.

I'm 100% behind this statement, I'm a former Ambulance officer and now a remote area nurse and people say to me you are an essential service etc but without the person stocking the shelves at the supermarket or working at the fuel station I couldn't do my job so to me they are just as important, and everyone should be very thankful for the people at the drive through coffee shop at 4am in the morning, without them I wouldn't be the charming polite understanding person that I am, all of you who have worked shifts know exactly what I mean.

 

[GrauGeist]

While I wasn't a fireman or LEO, I outfitted their rigs.

A demanding job with rare appreciation but my customers were getting the best and safest equipment found anywhere.

While this may not be P-38 related, it is in a sense - someone had to build and maintain those aircraft so the pilot could do his job.

Some of my fire apparatus here:

Fire Trucks!

The other day some fire truck pix were posted in the Trucks thread, and it occurred to me that we needed a thread devoted to Fire Fighting Apparatus because who doesn't like a Fire Truck? I think it would be great to see fire fighting vehicles from other parts of the globe. Here in this area...

ww2aircraft.net

And some of my LEO outfits are seen here:

Police Cars.....

Since we have a fire truck thread going, how about one for police cars? :) Too bad that I can't find any decent pics of '40 Ford and '49 Mercury police cars.....I like them! :oops: 8)

ww2aircraft.net

 

[PAT303]

Don't forget that the P38 doesn't face the torque issues that the SE fighters did. Flying on the edge of a stall, at low altitude is no place for a mistake in a high powered SE plane. The ground doesn't miss. With the P38 you can track the flaps a bit (increases both lift and drag) to help tighten the circle and add that the stall is not something to fear so flying to the edge doesn't have the same penalty (no torque issues).

Col Lowell faced off against a Spitfire, either a MkXII or MkXIV in a P38H in front of a crowd watching from the ground and was able to counter the Spitfires maneuverability by using the stall technique, known as the cloverleaf maneuver until they descended to 1,000ft at which point he nearly flew into the ground so called it off, the ceiling was 5,000ft so the Spit was at a disadvantage. I do remember reading about another ace who stalled in after using his throttles to tighten his turn?.

 

[Glider]

While I wasn't a fireman or LEO, I outfitted their rigs.

A demanding job with rare appreciation but my customers were getting the best and safest equipment found anywhere.

While this may not be P-38 related, it is in a sense - someone had to build and maintain those aircraft so the pilot could do his job.

Some of my fire apparatus here:

Fire Trucks!

The other day some fire truck pix were posted in the Trucks thread, and it occurred to me that we needed a thread devoted to Fire Fighting Apparatus because who doesn't like a Fire Truck? I think it would be great to see fire fighting vehicles from other parts of the globe. Here in this area...

ww2aircraft.net

And some of my LEO outfits are seen here:

Police Cars.....

Since we have a fire truck thread going, how about one for police cars? :) Too bad that I can't find any decent pics of '40 Ford and '49 Mercury police cars.....I like them! :oops: 8)

ww2aircraft.net

You would love it where I work. I work for a Police Force but the vehicle support branch is a shared service with the local Fire Service. The garage has every kind of vehicle from the police bike to the largest fire engine.

 

[Gary Cain]

In North Africa, Fs or maybe Gs.

Rall was never in North Africa. He shot down one P-38 over Germany, and after he was shot down by Shorty Rankin he was sent to a evaluation unit where he flew Allied aircraft and wrote up performance notes which would be sent to other fighter pilots.

He flew the P-38 as part of that testing.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Rall was never in North Africa. He shot down one P-38 over Germany, and after he was shot down by Shorty Rankin he was sent to a evaluation unit where he flew Allied aircraft and wrote up performance notes which would be sent to other fighter pilots.

He flew the P-38 as part of that testing.

Thanks for the correction.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Col Lowell faced off against a Spitfire, either a MkXII or MkXIV in a P38H in front of a crowd watching from the ground and was able to counter the Spitfires maneuverability by using the stall technique, known as the cloverleaf maneuver until they descended to 1,000ft at which point he nearly flew into the ground so called it off, the ceiling was 5,000ft so the Spit was at a disadvantage. I do remember reading about another ace who stalled in after using his throttles to tighten his turn?.

It was documented that several top aces "split the throttles" (AKA differential thrust) to achieve a tighter turn in the P-38, but this was more the exception than the rule.

Dogfighting in a P 38

i've been thinking again and came up with a few questions. 1. when in a dogfight could the pilot use throttles to change how the engines worked? i mean one engine on full power the other on half. if so how would the change the flight characteristics, is there any advantage to doing something...

ww2aircraft.net

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

I would be doubtful that an early P-38 could out turn a P-40 or a Spitfire or a Hurricane - in fact several Allied pilots (like DeHaven) noted that it couldn't, though perhaps he didn't know how to do the differential throttle thing.

I looked up Rall it seems like his career was mostly on the Russian Front and then defense of the homeland from April 1944. He did encounter P-38s then but I would think those would be the later model with the boosted controls? He claimed a P-38 on April 29, 1944 (just a couple of weeks before he was shot down by one of Hubert Zemke's flight of P-47s from 56th FG)

Later in 1944 he apparently flew (as opposition training) captured Spitfires, P-38s, P-47s and P-51s so he would have had a good insight into their performance. This again would be later model P-38s probably. How he flew with no thumb on his left hand I can't imagine! Guy really had an amazing career.

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

Rall was never in North Africa. He shot down one P-38 over Germany, and after he was shot down by Shorty Rankin he was sent to a evaluation unit where he flew Allied aircraft and wrote up performance notes which would be sent to other fighter pilots.

He flew the P-38 as part of that testing.

Hey sorry I missed this post before I wrote mine, you covered it more succinctly!

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I would be doubtful that an early P-38 could out turn a P-40 or a Spitfire or a Hurricane - in fact several Allied pilots (like DeHaven) noted that it couldn't, though perhaps he didn't know how to do the differential throttle thing.

See my post above and read the attached story. Tilley out-turned an Oscar at low speed which can easily out turn "a P-40 or a Spitfire or a Hurricane." "Pilot Skill" has a lot to do with this. His story...

Secrets of a P-38 Ace. John Tilley's electrifying story

By age 21, Capt. Tilley was an Ace combat pilot! By age 21 Capt. Tilley had received a DFC, 7 Air Medals, and a Campaign ribbon with 7 battle stars

www.kilroywashere.org

 

[GrauGeist]

Keep in mind that when "turning" is discussed, there are several factors that need to be looked at.

One of which, is speed: how much energy was involved in the fight?
An A6M was famous for it's ability to turn inside of his opponent - at low speed.
The P-40 could get inside of an A6M's turn - at high speed.

Conversely, the Me262 could be out turned by a P-51 if it bled off speed but the P-51 was in real trouble if it tried a high speed turn on an Me262, which had a tight turning radius at high speed.

So at what speeds were the Bf109 or P-40 out turning the P-38?

 

[33k in the air]

See my post above and read the attached story. Tilley out-turned an Oscar at low speed which can easily out turn "a P-40 or a Spitfire or a Hurricane." "Pilot Skill" has a lot to do with this. His story...

Secrets of a P-38 Ace. John Tilley's electrifying story

By age 21, Capt. Tilley was an Ace combat pilot! By age 21 Capt. Tilley had received a DFC, 7 Air Medals, and a Campaign ribbon with 7 battle stars

www.kilroywashere.org

Here is Tilley's account as quoted in The Great Book of World War II Airplanes by Jeffrey Ethell et. al. (p.47):

"Alright, so how come I got my second kill by turning a full 360º circle to the left, at low speeds and on the deck with an Oscar? Primarily I think it happened because the Jap and I both believed he could out turn me. I never would have tried to stay with him if there hadn't been 12 of us and only two of them. I figured I could always holler for help if I got in a jam. And I'm sure the Jap figured the usual tight turn was his best bet when he didn't have enough air under him for a split-S. Miracle of miracles, the big old P-38 actually turned inside the nimble little Oscar. I was on the deck, in a vertical bank, the airspeed under 90 mph, and the yoke bucking and shuddering in my hands. That turn was nothing more nor less than a controlled stall. But without torque (good old counter-rotating engines) I didn't worry about 'snapping' out of control and into a spin, as with a single engine aircraft, so I was able to pull enough lead for my guns to really hit him hard."

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

Well, a couple of things. My exact quote was "I would be doubtful that an early P-38 could out turn a P-40 or a Spitfire or a Hurricane" - referring to North Africa basically or the early Pacific war.

That account says John Alden was flying a P-38J in November 1944 when he had his victory over the Oscar. That doesn't make it that much less impressive mind you. That page has a really wonderful account by this guy about his life as a pilot.

But apparently the victory was at stall speed and very low altitude. Here is his description of it:

"The 2nd was an Oscar while I was flying in a J model. I was particularly proud of this one 'cause I was able to stay inside this maneuverable little rascal's left turn for 360 degrees while doing about 90MPH, and at less than 1000' above the water. That P-38J was bucking and shuddering all the way around in what was nothing more nor less than a controlled stall. I was so close to the Oscar that his engine oil covered my windshield. For the last half of the turn I was shooting at a dark blur that finally burst into-flames. When I saw the Oscar explode I pulled up and started calling for someone to lead me home cause I couldn't see through the oil on my windshield. "Pete" Madison[9] was kind enough to oblige. When we got back to base, I had to crank down the side window and wipe a clear spot on the windshield so I could see enough to land the bird."

So that is for sure riding a stall, and definitely taking advantage of both the power of the P-38 (no doubt pushing the MP) and the counter-rotating props as Biff pointed out up-thread. Most fighters want to flip over and spin when you are that close to a stall, I gather the P-38 will just drop the nose a bit in this situation, though no doubt it was extremely dangerous.

I'm not an expert on the P-38 by any means but i gather the J had some more available power due to the redesigned intercooler system, it had the dive flaps, and the J-25-LO onward had the hydraulic boosted ailerons. Again, not a P-38 expert and not a pilot, but I would think boosted ailerons might help ride a stall. Seems like the extra power definitely would though I don't know how much extra was available precisely.