Can some of the explanation for the P-38's greater success in the Pacific be attributed to poorer Japanese pilots?

[BiffF15]

Seems to me that in a fluid situation like a dogfight, there cannot be rigid adherence to rigid rules, only the application of them as they fit the situation.

There are some golden rules. And as with everything in life there are caveats. For every rule you come up with, there is a time when it won't stand the test of common sense.

Dogfighting: Go up blow up. When slow and someone is in your chili, going up just makes it easier. Except when you might have an energy advantage, and his nose can't be brought to bare on you.

Speed is life. It is, until it isn't. Going too fast and your turn circle resembles a SR-71 at well above the Mach. Big turn circles due to speed allows a slower or less nimble aircraft to get "inside" your turn radius and employ (depending on weapons type).

From my perspective, we are given manuals that have notes, cautions and warnings in them (both military and commercially). Notes are applicable to the safe and efficient operations, cautions if not done correctly can harm the plane, and warnings are usually written in blood (if not done properly can cause bodily injury or loss of life or limb). What isn't in the front of the book but should be is a statement to the effect, "Regardless what follows use common sense and airmanship". That statement is applicable in flying, in combat and in life (my opine).

Cheers,
Biff

 

[SaparotRob]

I imagine the common sense part is the toughest.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

There are some golden rules. And as with everything in life there are caveats. For every rule you come up with, there is a time when it won't stand the test of common sense.

Dogfighting: Go up blow up. When slow and someone is in your chili, going up just makes it easier. Except when you might have an energy advantage, and his nose can't be brought to bare on you.

Speed is life. It is, until it isn't. Going too fast and your turn circle resembles a SR-71 at well above the Mach. Big turn circles due to speed allows a slower or less nimble aircraft to get "inside" your turn radius and employ (depending on weapons type).

From my perspective, we are given manuals that have notes, cautions and warnings in them (both military and commercially). Notes are applicable to the safe and efficient operations, cautions if not done correctly can harm the plane, and warnings are usually written in blood (if not done properly can cause bodily injury or loss of life or limb). What isn't in the front of the book but should be is a statement to the effect, "Regardless what follows use common sense and airmanship". That statement is applicable in flying, in combat and in life (my opine).

Cheers,
Biff

Much like firefighting in my own experience, we had hard rules (no water on electrical fires), SOPs (hit the ceiling of a burning room with a straight-stream to steam out the blaze), and then suggestions as to how one might attack a blaze doing this or that but you had to rely upon your own judgement -- and you'd damned well better be right.

 

[Gary Cain]

I can no longer remember which ace said it in his writings, but he said don't shoot until his plane fills the windscreen.

Several followed that philosophy, Rall, Hartmann, Bong, etc.

 

[pinehilljoe]

You also have to look at tactics. The early P-38 drivers (Bong, McGuire, Lynch, Sparks) were well trained and had ample time in their aircraft.

The 475th also had a great leader, COL Charles MacDonald

 

[MikeMeech]

Several followed that philosophy, Rall, Hartmann, Bong, etc.

Hi
As did many others, for example, from 1940:
'Sailor' Malan - "Wait until you see the whites of his eyes."
Douglas Bader - "He who gets close shoots them down."

Mike

 

[GrauGeist]

Thought Col. Prescott at the Battle of Bunker Hill gave the order to "hold fire until you see the whites of their eyes".

 

[special ed]

What was he flying?

 

[BiffF15]

What was he flying?

P-39 Shagbat ( a rare, secretive edition of the Groundhog made at a underground bunker in the Ural Mountains)...

I hate when spell check misspells sh!t!

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

What was he flying?

A Brown Bess.

 

[Shortround6]

Much like firefighting in my own experience, we had hard rules (no water on electrical fires), SOPs (hit the ceiling of a burning room with a straight-stream to steam out the blaze), and then suggestions as to how one might attack a blaze doing this or that but you had to rely upon your own judgement -- and you'd damned well better be right.

You could violate an SOP but you better have a good reason.
Raking the ceiling (side to side and moving from close to far) with the straight stream did several things at the same time.
Cooled the hot gases at ceiling (even if it made the air down low hotter) helping preventing flash over. Also allowed for getting water behind large objects that are blocking direct attack.
However, putting several hundred gallons of water into a room and soaking everything in it to put out a trash can fire is frowned on.
And by the way, you were often in the dark or in very low visibility (seeing a few feet past your hand was good).
You also had about 5 minutes of water for one handline (1 3/4in) until the 2nd due engine got there. Enough for a few rooms but not enough for 5-6 rooms if only 1-2 were actually burning and you soaked the non burning rooms on the way to the actual fire.

You also had a 2-3 man team, Nozzle man was directed by officer/senior man who was closer enough to touch him. While nozzleman was directing the hose stream the officer was checking condition changes and looking for any red glows on either side/above that had gotten bypassed. 3rd man (if you had one) was trying to keep the feeding the hose and making sure it didn't get kinked or trapped under a door/object cutting off water.

Different SOP for each man but each man had to know what all the SOPs were to understand where he fit into the team.

A lot of judgement calls but having the SOPs is sort of (but not quite) a flow chart.
You also have two other teams (hopefully) with 2nd due engine providing water supply, either hydrant or connect hose to 1st in truck to give them the tank water and then taking a back up line following the first hose.
Truck crew is taking out windows or cutting to roof for ventilation to remove heat and smoke to improve visibility/conditions.

Judgment call "truckman sees the attack is kinked near the entry door, stop and get rid of kink or start removing windows as ordered by truck officer? " kinked hose line can severely restrict water flow.
SOPs cover somethings that should be common sense but you need everybody operating on the same page and not free lancing.

Just like fighter pilots needed to do certain jobs and not free lance (just rush pell-mell at the enemy).
Just because they yell "tally-ho" doesn't mean it is a fox chase.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

You could violate an SOP but you better have a good reason.
Raking the ceiling (side to side and moving from close to far) with the straight stream did several things at the same time.
Cooled the hot gases at ceiling (even if it made the air down low hotter) helping preventing flash over. Also allowed for getting water behind large objects that are blocking direct attack.
However, putting several hundred gallons of water into a room and soaking everything in it to put out a trash can fire is frowned on.
And by the way, you were often in the dark or in very low visibility (seeing a few feet past your hand was good).
You also had about 5 minutes of water for one handline (1 3/4in) until the 2nd due engine got there. Enough for a few rooms but not enough for 5-6 rooms if only 1-2 were actually burning and you soaked the non burning rooms on the way to the actual fire.

You also had a 2-3 man team, Nozzle man was directed by officer/senior man who was closer enough to touch him. While nozzleman was directing the hose stream the officer was checking condition changes and looking for any red glows on either side/above that had gotten bypassed. 3rd man (if you had one) was trying to keep the feeding the hose and making sure it didn't get kinked or trapped under a door/object cutting off water.

Different SOP for each man but each man had to know what all the SOPs were to understand where he fit into the team.

A lot of judgement calls but having the SOPs is sort of (but not quite) a flow chart.
You also have two other teams (hopefully) with 2nd due engine providing water supply, either hydrant or connect hose to 1st in truck to give them the tank water and then taking a back up line following the first hose.
Truck crew is taking out windows or cutting to roof for ventilation to remove heat and smoke to improve visibility/conditions.

Judgment call "truckman sees the attack is kinked near the entry door, stop and get rid of kink or start removing windows as ordered by truck officer? " kinked hose line can severely restrict water flow.
SOPs cover somethings that should be common sense but you need everybody operating on the same page and not free lancing.

Just like fighter pilots needed to do certain jobs and not free lance (just rush pell-mell at the enemy).
Just because they yell "tally-ho" doesn't mean it is a fox chase.

Right, you had to know both your shit and the circumstances. A 1000 or 750 gallon tank shooting 175 gpm/handline like our old trucks could carry, you didn't try to drown. You aimed to tamp down with steam, and then do entry and cooling, so the follow-up (hopefully there was one!) could ingress further.

Ventilation was usually done by follow-on crews, but we only had two structural pumpers at my base, so the need to be right in assessment and attack was even more vital. Third run was a crash truck to provide warm bodies and/or an extra supply hose-lay.

You had to think on your feet and not panic. That, too, strikes me as a parallel to air combat, because if you panic shit goes sideways very fast.

 

[Shortround6]

Different structures, different trucks/equipment, different staffing.
New England, mostly wood frame, many over 100 years old and 2-3 floors.
Two paid pumpers and one ladder truck but 3 man minimum manpower per truck, max 4. Two extra men on the Ambulance (if it wasn't already on a call).
3-4 extra volunteer engines in some areas of town (the corners)
Shift commander and pump operator counted as 2 men outside so you could put two men inside before 2nd pumper or ladder got there.

So different situations, different SOPs (we still didn't put water on electrical stuff and a big difference for us was if everybody was reported out or if somebody was reported inside.

about 80% of town had hydrants.

You do what you can with what you have.

BTW my department claims to have lost a basement in the years before I got hired.
House burned down to the foundation in winter. Had several feet of water in basement overnight, water froze and cracked the foundation.
My own distinction was, in addition to too many cat rescues to count (that finally stopped after many years) I was the guy on the stick (65 ft arial) at an Iguana rescue from a church steeple.
Again, New England, only Iguanas are escaped pets. Church was opposite the town green.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Different structures, different trucks/equipment, different staffing.
New England, mostly wood frame, many over 100 years old and 2-3 floors.
Two paid pumpers and one ladder truck but 3 man minimum manpower per truck, max 4. Two extra men on the Ambulance (if it wasn't already on a call).
3-4 extra volunteer engines in some areas of town (the corners)
Shift commander and pump operator counted as 2 men outside so you could put two men inside before 2nd pumper or ladder got there.

So different situations, different SOPs (we still didn't put water on electrical stuff and a big difference for us was if everybody was reported out or if somebody was reported inside.

about 80% of town had hydrants.

You do what you can with what you have.

BTW my department claims to have lost a basement in the years before I got hired.
House burned down to the foundation in winter. Had several feet of water in basement overnight, water froze and cracked the foundation.
My own distinction was, in addition to too many cat rescues to count (that finally stopped after many years) I was the guy on the stick (65 ft arial) at an Iguana rescue from a church steeple.
Again, New England, only Iguanas are escaped pets. Church was opposite the town green.

lol, I'mma tell that iguana he's on his own.

If someone was inside, it was hell for leather. And I've seen a couple of Charlie Foxtrot situations too, Dep Chief had a meltdown on-scene one time, or first-run pumper screwed the pooch and we on second-run had to backtrack a reverse-lay and take over ingress and extinguishment.

Adapt, improvise, overcome.

 

[Shortround6]

lol, I'mma tell that iguana he's on his own.

If someone was inside, it was hell for leather. And I've seen a couple of Charlie Foxtrot situations too, Dep Chief had a meltdown on-scene one time, or first-run pumper screwed the pooch and we on second-run had to backtrack a reverse-lay and take over ingress and extinguishment.

Adapt, improvise, overcome.

Things changed over 33 years. Officers got better.
Had an old assistant chief that liked to cut holes in roofs, put up a ladder pipe and aim the hose stream down through the hole.
My captain told me that if I refused to put the ladder pipe up it would be insubordination. However if I missed the hole with the hose stream that was just bad aim
It can be a real bitch when you have to keep one eye out over you shoulder for your assistant chief.
Captain was great and usually things were in place before the A chief showed up.
The A chief once once threatened the driver of 2nd engine with disciplinary charges if he didn't do a double reverse lay (2 1/2 in hose at the time, with 2 1/2in nozzles screwed to them) to his own deck gun which was still sitting on top the pumper at the time and the truck was about 100ft from the fire building. BTW we had about a 14 in main in the street with over 100lbs pressure with first hydrant flowing.
A little too much high proof alcohol before bed time.

Some of the wartime pilots had to deal with poor decisions and tactics too.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Things changed over 33 years. Officers got better.
Had an old assistant chief that liked to cut holes in roofs, put up a ladder pipe and aim the hose stream down through the hole.
My captain told me that if I refused to put the ladder pipe up it would be insubordination. However if I missed the hole with the hose stream that was just bad aim
It can be a real bitch when you have to keep one eye out over you shoulder for your assistant chief.
Captain was great and usually things were in place before the A chief showed up.
The A chief once once threatened the driver of 2nd engine with disciplinary charges if he didn't do a double reverse lay (2 1/2 in hose at the time, with 2 1/2in nozzles screwed to them) to his own deck gun which was still sitting on top the pumper at the time and the truck was about 100ft from the fire building. BTW we had about a 14 in main in the street with over 100lbs pressure with first hydrant flowing.
A little too much high proof alcohol before bed time.

Some of the wartime pilots had to deal with poor decisions and tactics too.

A double reverse, as in dropping supply hose on fireground, rolling to hook up to hydrant, and then pulling another length back to the AC's turret? Why does the AC have a turret on his truck at all? In my outfit, the AC drove a Suburban packed with prefire plans and Keebler peanut-butter crackers.

 

[NTGray]

My own distinction was, in addition to too many cat rescues to count (that finally stopped after many years) . . .

I had a friend in college who once wondered out loud why people would ever bother to rescue a cat from a tree, given that never in the history of the world has anybody ever found a cat skeleton in a tree.

 

[33k in the air]

There are some golden rules.

See: Oswald Boelcke

 

[Shortround6]

I had a friend in college who once wondered out loud why people would ever bother to rescue a cat from a tree, given that never in the history of the world has anybody ever found a cat skeleton in a tree.

Co-worker said that once to a cat owner, She called the Mayor before he got the truck back to the station.
Once blew a hydraulic line on a 100ft aerial platform attempting a cat rescue. Maybe it would have blown on the next 'real' job.
lost 7-10 gallons of hydraulic fluid in the snow (Feb?) had to line up the boom/ladder with chassis using several men on the ground with a rope. (and a lot time) Cat was still watchin
us as we left.

 

[BiffF15]

Co-worker said that once to a cat owner, She called the Mayor before he got the truck back to the station.
Once blew a hydraulic line on a 100ft aerial platform attempting a cat rescue. Maybe it would have blown on the next 'real' job.
lost 7-10 gallons of hydraulic fluid in the snow (Feb?) had to line up the boom/ladder with chassis using several men on the ground with a rope. (and a lot time) Cat was still watchin
us as we left.

It seems a bit outrageous that people risk their lives going after someones pet 100' up. And it's even more outrageous that when it's pointed out that no cat bones have ever been found in a tree (regardless whether made in a sarcastic manner or not) the individual calls the Mayor. Hopefully he put the issue to rest by pointing out that she wanted someone to risk their life to save an animal that didn't need to be saved...