Can some of the explanation for the P-38's greater success in the Pacific be attributed to poorer Japanese pilots?

[pbehn]

It seems a bit outrageous that people risk their lives going after someones pet 100' up. And it's even more outrageous that when it's pointed out that no cat bones have ever been found in a tree (regardless whether made in a sarcastic manner or not) the individual calls the Mayor. Hopefully he put the issue to rest by pointing out that she wanted someone to risk their life to save an animal that didn't need to be saved...

I once chased a stray cat inside our house. It jumped straight out of the bathroom window (upstairs) and broke straight into a run, two strides and up over the garden wall , my Mrs wondered what the "F" it was, she was outside watching it fall. You cant kill a cat by dropping it.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Air Force policy was that no Air Force fire trucks rolled out on cat rescues. He got up there himself, he can get down himself was apparently the sentiment, one I agree with.

 

[Greg Boeser]

While it may be true that no cat bones have ever been found in a tree, there are reports of dog collars being found in eagle's nests.

 

[pbehn]

While it may be true that no cat bones have ever been found in a tree, there are reports of dog collars being found in eagle's nests.

I havnt even heard of an eagle enrolling as a lay priest, how many become vicars?

 

[Shortround6]

A double reverse, as in dropping supply hose on fireground, rolling to hook up to hydrant, and then pulling another length back to the AC's turret? Why does the AC have a turret on his truck at all? In my outfit, the AC drove a Suburban packed with prefire plans and Keebler peanut-butter crackers.

AS in two 2 1/2 lines in the back (mid/late 70s) each of 750ft. One had a fog nozzle and the other had a straight bore. So you had the male ends on top (remove nozzles).
Break the lines at the desired length and attach to outlets. Female end at bottom. Quite possible to deploy both hoses at the same time, slooowley.
Deck gun was not pre-connected, it was simply stowed on a platform at the top of the truck. However command "reverse lay" generally means the hose connections are opposite to normal and you need to use double females at the hydrant and double males to couple the actually hoses to the inlets of the truck or to connect to the deck gun. It can be done, we had the adapters but why?


Getting back to aircraft (somewhat) some people don't understand how much tradition plays in aircraft design (or fire trucks). The Fire service was just as traditional (or more) as the horse cavalry.
As I have mentioned, New England (Connecticut) where we averaged 50-60+ inches of snow a year. When I was hired in 1976 we and one 1948 open cab ladder truck (the spare), one 1955 open cab pumper (also spare) A 1959 ( with a fiberglass cap over the open cab, 1st line.) and the two 1972 trucks (one pumper and one ladder) had enclosed cabs (with heat) for the driver and the officer two rearward facing seat seats separated by sliding Plexiglas from the "real" cab were next to the engine were open to rear rear. any heat was what came through the diamond plate engine hoods. Took us well into the 80s to get a pumper with all seats enclosed and heated and took even longer to get air conditioning.
P-38 pilots were complaining about not enough heat??? Pansies, at least they didn't have open cockpits

Yes most of our trips were under 15 minutes one way but it took a while for some services to figure out that men/women functioned better when they didn't have to deal with extreme temperatures before dealing with emergencies.
people that wonder why air force XXX didn't start using enclosed canopies in the 1920s and early 30s were fighting tradition, not science and were sacrificing effectiveness.
Pilots were supposed to be able to judge the degree of side slip (or yaw) by the difference in the wind hitting their face. After a few hours in a 150mph wind the pilots were lucky they could feel anything at all in less than summer weather.
Took the RN (and other navies) quite a while to shorten the time on look out duty with out breaks/relief.

 

[Shortround6]

It seems a bit outrageous that people risk their lives going after someones pet 100' up. And it's even more outrageous that when it's pointed out that no cat bones have ever been found in a tree (regardless whether made in a sarcastic manner or not) the individual calls the Mayor. Hopefully he put the issue to rest by pointing out that she wanted someone to risk their life to save an animal that didn't need to be saved...

Nope. It took another 20 years for that "service" to be phased out.
After all we firemen were just sucking up the tax payers money and were not doing anything anyway (or playing cards).
We did not have a good employee/ employer relationship back then.
Got a lot better when we took over the town Ambulance and did more medical calls. Now not just fires but we had helped grandma when she fell or uncle Joe when he had a heart attack or cousin Sally at a car accident. When you start explaining to people that we don't do cat calls anymore because it might delay medical care you get a lot less flak, More people have somebody in their family/friends that a medical problem than had a fire problem.

I am not sure if the fact that out of the last 5 mayors in 1960-70 and early 80s the last people that saw them alive were firemen finally sunk in
Not saying we did anything wrong but when they use the Firemen and other town workers as a scapegoat for high taxes and then depend on them for fast medical services??
Of course many politicians are not real smart anyway.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Nope. It took another 20 years for that "service" to be phased out.
After all we firemen were just sucking up the tax payers money and were not doing anything anyway (or playing cards).
We did not have a good employee/ employer relationship back then.
Got a lot better when we took over the town Ambulance and did more medical calls. Now not just fires but we had helped grandma when she fell or uncle Joe when he had a heart attack or cousin Sally at a car accident. When you start explaining to people that we don't do cat calls anymore because it might delay medical care you get a lot less flak, More people have somebody in their family/friends that a medical problem than had a fire problem.

I am not sure if the fact that out of the last 5 mayors in 1960-70 and early 80s the last people that saw them alive were firemen finally sunk in
Not saying we did anything wrong but when they use the Firemen and other town workers as a scapegoat for high taxes and then depend on them for fast medical services??
Of course many politicians are not real smart anyway.

You're never appreciated until you're needed, brotha. One to another, thanks for your service.

 

[BiffF15]

Nope. It took another 20 years for that "service" to be phased out.
After all we firemen were just sucking up the tax payers money and were not doing anything anyway (or playing cards).
We did not have a good employee/ employer relationship back then.
Got a lot better when we took over the town Ambulance and did more medical calls. Now not just fires but we had helped grandma when she fell or uncle Joe when he had a heart attack or cousin Sally at a car accident. When you start explaining to people that we don't do cat calls anymore because it might delay medical care you get a lot less flak, More people have somebody in their family/friends that a medical problem than had a fire problem.

I am not sure if the fact that out of the last 5 mayors in 1960-70 and early 80s the last people that saw them alive were firemen finally sunk in
Not saying we did anything wrong but when they use the Firemen and other town workers as a scapegoat for high taxes and then depend on them for fast medical services??
Of course many politicians are not real smart anyway.

For both you and Thump and hearty thanks! It's an incredible service to have available. I was saved from carbon monoxide poisoning as a kid by the local FD, so hats off to you and all the guys who do the "job"!

 

[special ed]

Another off thread but fire truck subject reminded me of the neighbor fire station (New Orleans. City Park area) that had two pumpers. The one I liked was a 1927 Ahrens-Fox with the pumper dome at the front just in front of the engine. If it was the weekend and I was about early (1958-59) I would be there when they started them and warmed the engines. Nothing, not P&W or Allisons ever sounded the same. Once, in 59, a fire on a three storey frame building conv to apartments, caused both pumpers to roll. They connected to hydrants and the fire was soon out. However, some must have gotten in the outer wall behind the old dry grey weatherboard and a few wisps of smoke appeared. So the Ahrens-Fox again roared the two blocks to the building, rapidly threw one line into the bayou and the pump roared and water tore off side boards three storeys up with accompaning small fish. The Ahrens-Fox was retired shortly after I returned from USAF and became an attraction in the park kiddyland where within a year all of the brass had been stolen. The firemen told me the A-F pump was rated at 900 gpm and the newer truck's pump at 1000gpm. I watched both in action at the same time and the 1927 out performed the 1950 by a wide margin.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

For both you and Thump and hearty thanks! It's an incredible service to have available. I was saved from carbon monoxide poisoning as a kid by the local FD, so hats off to you and all the guys who do the "job"!

We're all a team! Throw out your dice and see how they roll, and if you're putting your ass on the line -- in a cockpit, in a building burning down, whatever -- someone's got your back. That's life, when done right, I reckon. We've all trusted our lives to complete strangers, and that too is part of the human condition.

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

When the P-38 arrived in New Guinea in late '42, they were soon engaging both IJN and IJA fighters who's skilled pilot pool had not started to decline yet.

It was the P-38's ability to "energy fight" that put the A6M and KI-43 at a disadvantage. In other words, with the P-38's ability to turn and climb/dive at higher speeds, the Japanese pilots were not able to fully bring an effective fight against the Lightning.

Not so much dive apparently as "shallow high-speed climb" from what I've read. But other than that, this. Ki-43 and A6M could fly at 20-25,000 + ft, and often did because this was where they had the biggest advantage over P-40s and P-39s, and where their bombers had a greater hope of surviving US AAA, but in general, most IJN / IJA aircraft were fairly anemic at those altitudes at a P-38 just had a lot more power available, which translated to speed, climb and even to some extent maneuver advantage.

The rated altitude for the Sake 21 was at 16,800 feet, where it was generating about 850 hp (military) at 40" Hg but it went down from there fairly swiftly. 850 hp is enough to move a zero around pretty nicely but by 20,000 ft it's down to 35" Hg max (somewhere around 720 hp), by 25,000 it's down to 28" (around 525 hp) which is not cutting it.

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

The KI-43 was comparable in performance to the A6M - you didn't always have the luxury of "diving" on either type, but by maintaining speed, you could counter their inability to high-energy fight.

And Ki-43 didn't have the control difficulties that the A6M had in diving

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

The average A6M pilot would never try to dive away from a diving attack. It wasn't his airplane's strength. He'd break into the attack and try to dogfight and catch you on your way back up.

Only green newbie would try to dive away from someone who was already in a diving attack maneuver.

Don't get me wrong, there WERE a few green newbies. But not an many as you seem to indicate.

I kind of agree with this but kind of don't. Apparently Japanese fighter doctrine in the early war was actually to energy fight and and apparently in some of the early fighting in New Guinea IJN zeros did pursue US and Aussie pilots in dives, and in some cases got them. Successfully engaging in the diving escape maneuver took some skill and took a while to perfect. I think people tend to exaggerate and oversimplify how easy it was.

You made a good point earlier about the A6M still being a potentially very deadly opponent right to the end of the war. Greg Boyington, as good as he was, was shot down in 1944, as just one example.

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

Well, no Zero ever got the better of me on my sim, it cant be that much different in an actual plane.

Actually I think in most of the better combat Sims, zeros are quite dangerous

 

[SaparotRob]

I once chased a stray cat inside our house. It jumped straight out of the bathroom window (upstairs) and broke straight into a run, two strides and up over the garden wall , my Mrs wondered what the "F" it was, she was outside watching it fall. You cant kill a cat by dropping it.

Not that anyone hasn't tried.

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

Japanese commanders were complaining about the poor quality of replacement pilots as early as late 1942. One problem they had was production of the Zero barely kept pace with attrition, so the guys coming from rear areas and flight schools had no time in them, as they were still flying A5Ms. The IJA units committed to New Guinea at the end of 1942 arrived with Ki-43 Is. These were hand me downs from units in Burma and the NEI, which were transitioning to Ki-43 IIs

A decline from the extremely high standards of early war Japanese fighter pilots was still probably reflective a pretty high standard....

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

I'm not quite clear about which part of my premise you don't completely agree with.
I don't dispute that the P-38 was a great design (although there were some problems caused by the complexity of the plane, making for high pilot workload). But although it was used in Europe, it was not considered a great plane by the high brass there, whereas in the Pacific theater it was much more effective. I'm just wondering whether part of that success was due to the Japanese air forces already suffering from a drop in quality, even as early as early 1943. And I'm posting this as a question, not as an argument that I am prepared to defend.

I really don't think so. In the Pacific, P-38 had a niche that good pilots could exploit, i.e. speed in general, and performance at higher altitudes.

In the MTO, it really did not have either of these advantages over the Bf 109 (especially once they got to G series) and the extended teething problems with the P-38 for example meant that it couldn't really effectively do diving escape maneuvers (OR climbing ones) against a Bf 109 or really a MC 202 / 205 either. So it's only real advantage was range and maybe a slight speed advantage at altitude, while it had a fairly severe disadvantage in maneuverability, at least until the much later variants came out with all the improvements. And had all the other issues with pilot work load, steep learning curve (many pilots not really being trained for two engines) etc.

In the Pacific even the very early (flawed) P-38 models had these two advantages of speed and high altitude. Even at medium altitudes they could swoop in, attack, and climb away at high speed (not always, not automatically, but often enough). Plus range and redundancy of the extra engine was more of a factor in that zone.

It's kind of interesting that the P-38 never really found a niche in China / Burma / India, I never fully understood why but maybe that's just because not enough were available in time.

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

I think a lot has to do with the relative performance of the opposing aircraft.
The P-38 did not have much of a speed edge against German fighters, and was not as maneuverable. Then you have the mission profile, close escort, which limits your tactics and gives the initiative to the interceptor.
In the Pacific, the P-38 was superior to anything the Japanese had, and they had a greater freedom of action.

I would say P-38 did eventually find a niche in the MTO though, which was escorting the bigger bombers (B-24s and B-17s) on operational bombing strikes at longer ranges and higher altitudes. It was good in that role. They had more trouble earlier when they tried to use for the things P-40s and Spitfires were doing.

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

I knew Gunther Rall pretty well. He said below 15,000 they couldn't touch a P-38. Above 15,000 and the '109 was a tad bit superior (F Model) above 22,000 and the 109 was a bit more than a tad superior. However, he said if you found yourself in front of the guns you were in deep trouble. The firepower concentration was so great that if the P-38 got a piece of you, it usually got all of you.

Wow that is news to me. I wonder what versions he dealt with, and does he mean speed basically or other things?

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

Actually Greg, the first deployments of P-38s to the SWP did not have the same issues as encountered in the ETO. First, many early P-38 drivers either had considerable time in the aircraft or were veterans who transitioned from P-39s and P-40s, these from the 39th and 9th fighter squadrons. They made a good account of themselves on Dec. 27, 1942 over Port Moresby and this action was a sign of things to come. IIRC this was Bong's first aerial combat. I believe at the time they were flying P-38Gs and Hs and did not receive J models until 1944. Even before getting the "J," 5th AF P-38s dominated most areas where they operated from.

They had that OTU squadron in the SW Pacific area (was it 35 FG?) that is where many of the P-38 pilots transferred from 49th FG etc. got their start, I think in the MTO they had to hit the ground running more and the air combat was on a larger scale right out of the gate.

In New Guinea weather and logistics were such a problem for both sides that the air combat ramped up kind of more gradually.