Can some of the explanation for the P-38's greater success in the Pacific be attributed to poorer Japanese pilots?

[FLYBOYJ]

I'm no pilot, but I reckon turning into the attack makes target acquisition harder and shortens firing time for the attacker as well. Both are good things when you're being bounced, I bet.

1. Always try to secure an advantageous position before attacking. Climb before and during the approach in order to surprise the enemy from above, and dive on him swiftly from the rear when the moment to attack is at hand.
2. Try to place yourself between the sun and the enemy. This puts the glare of the sun in the enemy's eyes and makes it difficult to see you and impossible for him to shoot with any accuracy.
3. Do not fire the machine guns until the enemy is within range and you have him squarely within your sights.
4. Attack when the enemy least expects it or when he is preoccupied with other duties such as observation, photography, or bombing.
5. Never turn your back and try to run away from an enemy fighter. If you are surprised by an attack on your tail, turn and face the enemy with your guns.
6. Keep your eye on the enemy and do not allow him to deceive you with tricks. If your opponent seems damaged, follow him down until he crashes to be sure he is not faking.
7. Foolish acts of bravery only bring death. The Jasta (squadron) must fight as a unit with close teamwork between all pilots. The signals of its leaders must be obeyed.
8. For the Staffel (squadron): Attack in principle in groups of four or six. When the fight breaks up into a series of single combats, take care that several do not go for one opponent

Dicta Boelcke

 

[BiffF15]

I'm no pilot, but I reckon turning into the attack makes target acquisition harder and shortens firing time for the attacker as well. Both are good things when you're being bounced, I bet.

You are correct depending on his range. In or approaching his gun range yes. A moving target (aware) is much more difficult to kill than one who is unaware. What you are doing is compressing his time available in which he has the opportunity to pull the trigger. And by constantly changing your flight path, or jinking (if he is in gun range with his nose in lead). Or if he is out of range but close you will change your flight path to make his gun shot difficult. Example I pick up a guy closing for a pass on me, but still out of range I can (altitude allowing) start a descending turn back into him. This causes him to steepen his decent, gaining speed, which will compress his opportunity to shoot. Add a constantly changing flight path (all while turning into him) and it makes his shot even more difficult.

Picking up the offender (attacker) well outside gun range allows you to turn and go head to head. This allows you to shoot at him. You can't kill a guy unless you can point at him when all you have is the gun.

Also not to be discounted is the surprise or startle factor when someone you think should be dead or dying very shortly turns into you and commences to fighting. Pisses you off it does. It can also disrupt the plan or attack.

I could probably write a dissertation on how to survive gun attacks so realize you are getting the cliff notes to the cliff notes times three.

Cheers,
Biff

 

[PAT303]

I'm no pilot, but I reckon turning into the attack makes target acquisition harder and shortens firing time for the attacker as well. Both are good things when you're being bounced, I bet.

Wasn't that a basic fighting technique learned in WW1?, one of Immelmans rules?.
Edit, Flyboy named it, Boelcke

 

[BiffF15]

Redundant…

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

I could probably write a dissertation on how to survive gun attacks so realize you are getting the cliff notes to the cliff notes times three.

Cheers,
Biff

Not being a fighter pilot, your boiling it down is much appreciated. Turning into the attack compresses the time the attacker has to adjust aim, and hopefully puts one's own guns into the neighborhood, at best, or at worst puts you above the diving attacker for a moment?

If you are surprised by an attack on your tail, turn and face the enemy with your guns.

Dicta Boelcke

Right, but I've only used that in flight sims and did not want to pontificate based on that.

 

[GrauGeist]

Reminds me of a B-52 pilot who was keen on hot-dogging it till he augered it in.

Col. Holland was a hotshot with a history of operating outside of regs and honestly should have had his wings pulled long before.

That stunt he pulled in '94 not only killed him, but his crew as well.
And he damn-near plowed that B-52 into a nuclear facility.

None of which has anything to do with P-38s in the PTO.

 

[BiffF15]

Not being a fighter pilot, your boiling it down is much appreciated. Turning into the attack compresses the time the attacker has to adjust aim, and hopefully puts one's own guns into the neighborhood, at best, or at worst puts you above the diving attacker for a moment?



Right, but I've only used that in flight sims and did not want to pontificate based on that.

Thump,

Say you are flying along and look over your shoulder to see hostiles starting a descending attack run on you. If they are well outside gun range you can:

1. Push up the power and run (option if your plane is faster and you have time to accelerate).

2. Start a turn climbing back into him to arrive nose to nose. If you assess that your speed would be too low at the merge you can do a level or descending turn towards the attacker keeping or gaining airspeed. When you assess his range to be correct start a climb such that you will be able to start shooting no later than when he can shoot at you. This merge will occur at a lower altitude but with you having more speed (energy). The more energy you have the more options available. If you arrive with more energy you may have exclusive options (ability to do something he can't).

This time you look over his shoulder and assess he will start firing very soon (he is approaching a gun WEZ - weapons employment zone). Your immediate goal is to survive, then neutralize, then leave / go offensive if able.

1. You will simultaneously roll, put your lift vector below him (point the vert tail below him), pull the throttle to idle, and pull to your aircraft limits. Your friend is closure, and it's a tool to cause him problems. Almost immediately you will change your lift vector and do it again. Oh, don't lose sight during these reflexive actions as doing so will result in one getting their arse handed to them.

2. If you cause or he just does an overshoot (flys past you) roll and pull to align fuselages (point at him) and should he be close enough shoot back. If he has his closure under control (stays behind you) you will have to continue jinking (power back, continuously reorienting your lift vector while not losing sight more than momentarily). This is a continuation of the "survive" part. Meanwhile get in the radio and call for help. Stay aware of your altitude and start think about your floor transition (one must honor the ground as it's very unforgiving).

There are more follow on options as well as choices to be made.

Does that answer your question?

Cheers,
Biff

 

[SaparotRob]

I love that kind of talk.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Thump,

Say you are flying along and look over your shoulder to see hostiles starting a descending attack run on you. If they are well outside gun range you can:

1. Push up the power and run (option if your plane is faster and you have time to accelerate).

2. Start a turn climbing back into him to arrive nose to nose. If you assess that your speed would be too low at the merge you can do a level or descending turn towards the attacker keeping or gaining airspeed. When you assess his range to be correct start a climb such that you will be able to start shooting no later than when he can shoot at you. This merge will occur at a lower altitude but with you having more speed (energy). The more energy you have the more options available. If you arrive with more energy you may have exclusive options (ability to do something he can't).

This time you look over his shoulder and assess he will start firing very soon (he is approaching a gun WEZ - weapons employment zone). Your immediate goal is to survive, then neutralize, then go offensive if able.

1. You will simultaneously roll, put your lift vector below him (point the vert tail below him), pull the throttle to idle, and pull to your aircraft limits. Your friend is closure, and it's a tool to cause him problems. Almost immediately you will change your lift vector and do it again. Oh, don't lose sight during these reflexive actions as doing so will result in one getting their arse handed to them.

2. If you cause or he just does an overshoot (flys past you) roll and pull to align fuselages (point at him) and should he be close enough shoot back. If he has his closure under control (stays behind you) you will have to continue jinking (power back, continuously reorienting your lift vector while not losing sight more than momentarily). This is a continuation of the "survive" part. Meanwhile get in the radio and call for help. Stay aware of your altitude and start thing about your floor transition (one must honor the ground as it's very unforgiving).

There are more follow on options as well as choices to be made.

Does that answer your question?

Cheers,
Biff

Of course, yeah. Disrupt his targeting, try to retain energy, and if you can, line up a shot ... and if you can't, get the FOOD. Right?

 

[BiffF15]

Of course, yeah. Disrupt his targeting, try to retain energy, and if you can, line up a shot ... and if you can't get the FOOD. Right?

Yes, getting the FOOD is key. I left it out of my post but updated it (in bold).

Dogfighting, or BFM (Basic Fighter Maneuvers) is nothing more than fighting with planes. If you do martial arts, boxing, fighting sticks (kali) you learn the how's and why's. Here is how you stand and why, how you throw a kick, punch, or combo (a higher level of fighting if done well). It's the same in the plane. Do it enough and you start "seeing" what your opponent can do (his options), and you know yours, then you start doing chess moves all designed to back him into a corner, or have him end up face down on the floor with your knee in his back and stiletto sliding in under his jaw. Once done with him, keep moving. Check your six, fix and clear for the formation, scan your instruments (yellow lights being bad) and fuel status. As the Spartans would say, "War is work". So be good at it, and try to get better every day.

Cheers,
Biff

 

[special ed]

I can no longer remember which ace said it in his writings, but he said don't shoot until his plane fills the windscreen.

 

[MikeMeech]

1. Always try to secure an advantageous position before attacking. Climb before and during the approach in order to surprise the enemy from above, and dive on him swiftly from the rear when the moment to attack is at hand.
2. Try to place yourself between the sun and the enemy. This puts the glare of the sun in the enemy's eyes and makes it difficult to see you and impossible for him to shoot with any accuracy.
3. Do not fire the machine guns until the enemy is within range and you have him squarely within your sights.
4. Attack when the enemy least expects it or when he is preoccupied with other duties such as observation, photography, or bombing.
5. Never turn your back and try to run away from an enemy fighter. If you are surprised by an attack on your tail, turn and face the enemy with your guns.
6. Keep your eye on the enemy and do not allow him to deceive you with tricks. If your opponent seems damaged, follow him down until he crashes to be sure he is not faking.
7. Foolish acts of bravery only bring death. The Jasta (squadron) must fight as a unit with close teamwork between all pilots. The signals of its leaders must be obeyed.
8. For the Staffel (squadron): Attack in principle in groups of four or six. When the fight breaks up into a series of single combats, take care that several do not go for one opponent

Dicta Boelcke

Hi
If you are over enemy territory and/or you do not have air superiority #6 could get you killed in WW1 and WW2.

Mike

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Hi
If you are over enemy territory and/or you do not have air superiority #6 could get you killed in WW1 and WW2.

Mike

Tell that to Oswald Boelcke

 

[PAT303]

Hi
If you are over enemy territory and/or you do not have air superiority #6 could get you killed in WW1 and WW2.

Mike

Tell that to Oswald Boelcke

RAF pilots were expressly forbidden from diving after a damaged 109 during the BoB.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

RAF pilots were expressly forbidden from diving after a damaged 109 during the BoB.

And rightfully so - be advised the Dicta Boelcke has been the basis for aerial combat for years. This was HIS dicta, not mine and the operational situational should be considered when applying this.

 

[Shortround6]

In a fur ball diving after your victim to confirm the kill means, at best, dividing your attention between the diving plane in front of you and other enemy planes that are either behind you or soon will be as you exit the fur ball. It Also may mean leaving your wingman/squadron mates behind and being isolated. Also means you are no longer in a position aid your squadron mates.

 

[GregP]

I can no longer remember which ace said it in his writings, but he said don't shoot until his plane fills the windscreen.

Erich Hartmann.

 

[MikeMeech]

Tell that to Oswald Boelcke

Hi
Yes, but as you probably know slightly different versions of the "Dicta" have been published, for example in 'Dog-Fight, Aerial Tactics of the Aces of World War I' by Norman Franks:

The version in 'The First Air Campaign, August 1914 - November 1918' by Eric and Jane Lawson, page 103, has this:

Following the enemy down has gone.
Doctrine for the German Air Arm went out under the signature of Ludendorff, some extracts relating to fighters (January and February 1918 docs) below:

The Allies, including the British, also had to think about tactics and doctrine as everything about air warfare was new, the 'Training Manual RFC Part II' of 1915 (update of 1914 version) included a section 'air fighting':

The tactics depended on the type of aeroplane was being flown and weapons on board, however, the last bit has a very familiar ring to the subject.
For those interested in the development of air fighting the appendices of the British Official History 'War in the Air' (should be available on-line) has some interesting documents, for example:
'Notes on Aeroplane Fighting in Single-Seater Scouts' of November 1916.
'Fighting in the Air ' of March 1917 and February 1918.
'Development of Aerial Fighting' of December 1917.
'The Employment of the Royal Flying Corps in Defence' January 1918.
And others. These were issued by GHQ/HQ RFC and were produced using the information gained from notes taken during 'after action' debriefs on the squadrons, these were sent up, via the RFC command structure, and formulated to give an overall view of air tactics that could be used and modified as the war progressed. Tactics on all sides changed as the war situation changed.

Mike

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Hi
Yes, but as you probably know slightly different versions of the "Dicta" have been published, for example in 'Dog-Fight, Aerial Tactics of the Aces of World War I' by Norman Franks:


Mike

Well aware of this as well as the numerous publications it referenced in. Bottom line, this is the baseline, it's adjusted accordingly as operation dictate. For example in Korea, F-86s chased damaged MiG-15 to the Yalu and did so in most cases with coordination with their wingman.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Seems to me that in a fluid situation like a dogfight, there cannot be rigid adherence to rigid rules, only the application of them as they fit the situation.