captured Zekes before June 1942

[KraziKanuK]

Seems that the American Aleutian Zeke that crash landed in June 1942 was not the first captured and flown.

http://www.warbirdforum.com/neumann.htm
http://www.j-aircraft.com/research/WarPrizes.htm

Why do the history books ignore the 'Chinese' Zekes?

 

[plan_D]

I had actually heard about this before. The USN had reports on the Zeke before Pearl Harbour but refused to accept them as solid evidence to capability of the Zeke. I imagine America, as well as most Western nations, refused to believe that Japan could build a plane that could even fly let alone out-perform anything they were flying against.

History books ignore these captured Zekes because the United States ignored them. They didn't really get a proper idea until they caught one for themselves. And that is why Japan had any success, Western ignorance.

 

[evangilder]

Western ignorance, but I think it was also somewhat caused by western arrogance. No one in the US wanted to believe Chennault's report about the zero because they simply did not want to believe that those Japanese could build anything good.

 

[Smokey]

The common problem of some of the old men who are in charge having prejudices or outdated ideas.

Or there is the conspiracy theory of FDR and others knowing about the plan to attack Pearl Harbour but allowing it to happen as an excuse to go to war with the axis, so reports about the performance of the Zero were ignored so that the authorities could claim they had no idea the Zero had sufficient range or performance..........

 

[evangilder]

I think you mean FDR, not JFK, but yes, there were policies of isolationism at the time and theories abound about who knew what and when. There were certainly a lot of mistakes made just prior to the attack as well.

 

[Smokey]

Doh!

Edited

It would explain why the earlier captured Zeroes seem to have been ignored

 

[FLYBOYJ]

The common problem of some of the old men who are in charge having prejudices or outdated ideas.

Or there is the conspiracy theory of FDR and others knowing about the plan to attack Pearl Harbour but allowing it to happen as an excuse to go to war with the axis, so reports about the performance of the Zero were ignored so that the authorities could claim they had no idea the Zero had sufficient range or performance..........

I think some of the performance reports were ignored because some US leaders couldn't believe the Japanese could build a capable modern fighter.

As far as FDR knowing the attack on Pearl was going to happen - I don't believe it because although some diplomatic codes were broken, I don't think people close to FDR could grasp the the intentions of the Japanese by their actions prior to WW2. Also remember, FDR had a great social conscious, this was evident in the sweeping social changes he brought about to get the US out of the depression and I don't think he would of knowing allowed US servicemen to be sacrificed just as an excuse to enter WW2

 

[Smokey]

I know, this conspiracy theory doesn't fit in with his New Deal program

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Well said, I hate to say it but in that day there was such an element of racisim that even with hard facts many oldtimers in the US military just wouldn't believe that the Japanese had capable military, but I guess Pearl Horbor was a wake upi call....

 

[KraziKanuK]

I know, this conspiracy theory doesn't fit in with his New Deal program

Why would it not? War meant a booming industry and all that goes with it. It also meant that the USA would become the prime in the Pacific with Japan out of the picture.

As for FDR and PH, he had to know how far he was pushing the Japanese to the precipuse. Unfortunately, the casualties were more than expected especially with the lucky bomb to the Arizona. It was not the first time the Americans had sacrificed lives in some way or another as an excuse to go to war. A certain BB in Havana harbour springs to mind.

I know I am going to get some flak now.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I know, this conspiracy theory doesn't fit in with his New Deal program

Why would it not? War meant a booming industry and all that goes with it. It also meant that the USA would become the prime in the Pacific with Japan out of the picture.

As for FDR and PH, he had to know how far he was pushing the Japanese to the precipuse. Unfortunately, the casualties were more than expected especially with the lucky bomb to the Arizona. It was not the first time the Americans had sacrificed lives in some way or another as an excuse to go to war. A certain BB in Havana harbour springs to mind.

I know I am going to get some flak now.

Not too much flak - remember no one was able to predict the boom the war was going to bring and for the most part most of the US (including major industrialists) wanted to remain neutral. Joe Kennedy (JFKs scumbag dad who was the ambassador to GB) wanted the US to abandon the UK and even cozy up to Hitler while keeping the US out of the war.

I don't think the Pacific was that strategic to the US at the time as most of it's natural resources were available at home. It was only after PH that the Japanese went after the oil fields in Indonesia as the US stopped selling them oil years earlier!!!!

No, a president who went to great strides to get starving people employed and created numerous projects to improve the US infrastructure was more concerned internally and just doesn't fit the mold of a politician who would sacrifice lives to become a player in a war that the US didn't want to begin with!

 

[KraziKanuK]

It is a well known fact that a war will spur the economy. History has shown us this many times. After WW1, there was a minor depression from the boom of the war years because there was too many men for the jobs available.

America was selling arms and material to the UK before 12-41. Greater profits to be made if the customer is at home.

America, as well as GB, was worried about the Japanese influence expansion in the Pacific.

How much money did these projects of FDR cost? Where was the money to keep them going coming from. The barrel had a bottom.

Just some comments for you to ponder on.

I wunder if Kennedy was influenced by his Irish heritage? The New England area supported the Irish in the 'troubled times' post WW2.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Some good points there KK - I think Joe Kennedy was just a flaming arsehole thinking to cash in his chips too early.

As far as the projects tat FDR instigated during the late 1939s - many of these were done by taxes, there was a re-distribution of wealth as a result of tax codes changing - Hoover Dam, the Golden Gate Bridge, the George Washington Bridge, major highway projects are a few examples of projects that in turn generated income as a result of employment...

 

[KraziKanuK]

Yes, but was there enough taxation to have the projects in the black?

It is my understanding the the money 'in the barrel' for these projects was almost at the bottom dispite the increase in the tax base and there was still money required for normal govermant operations. It has been a long time since history classes.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Yes, but was there enough taxation to have the projects in the black?

It is my understanding the the money 'in the barrel' for these projects was almost at the bottom dispite the increase in the tax base and there was still money required for normal govermant operations. It has been a long time since history classes.

Very true - I think FDR would of been satified just selling war booty to keep things rolling.

No denying that he knew the US could't remain out of the war forever, but I really don't think he would of allowed PH if he really knew about it, doesn't fit his MO - now if we were talking Johnson or Nixion......

 

[KraziKanuK]

This thread has gone OT, for sure.

The U-boat Happy Times off the American east coast, though it has been stated that there was not enough ships to provide adaquite(sp??) protection among other reasons, was used to drum up further support for the American war effort. I say this because I don't think all Americans were fully gung-ho to take on all the Axis powers. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Drumbeat

For sure, Tricky Dick would. As for FDR, maybe in another couple of hundred years, the truth will come out.

Now if PH had gone to say DefCon 2 from DefCon 3 (is that the correct number for an increase in the threat level?) the Japanese would have been met by a prepared force with a substantial decrease in casualties. Was this because the Military did not heed FDR?

 

[FLYBOYJ]

This thread has gone OT, for sure.

Yes it has!

The U-boat Happy Times off the American east coast, though it has been stated that there was not enough ships to provide adaquite(sp??) protection among other reasons, was used to drum up further support for the American war effort. I say this because I don't think all Americans were fully gung-ho to take on all the Axis powers. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Drumbeat

I agree!

For sure, Tricky Dick would. As for FDR, maybe in another couple of hundred years, the truth will come out.

True - don't forget Johnson though - he was probably worse than Nixon with regards to something like this!

Now if PH had gone to say DefCon 2 from DefCon 3 (is that the correct number for an increase in the threat level?) the Japanese would have been met by a prepared force with a substantial decrease in casualties. Was this because the Military did not heed FDR?

Back then they didn't have that, but yes that is an increased threat level. I think many ranking officers would not of heeded FDR for the reasons previously mentioned.....

And again, those same bone heads were the one who refused to believe that the Japanese were able to produce a competitive fighter

 

[KraziKanuK]

Yes, I know DefCon was not in use at that time. I could have worded it better to indicate the threat level, ie to say 'a modern term'. That Sunday in Dec had the US forces in the PH were on a Sunday '???' (sorry don't know what the word should be) instead of a weekday '???'. It was know that the Japanese were getting agitated. More of the 'boneheads' screw-ups.

Interesting about Johnson. Nice to know.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Yes, I know DefCon was not in use at that time. I could have worded it better to indicate the threat level, ie to say 'a modern term'. That Sunday in Dec had the US forces in the PH were on a Sunday '???' (sorry don't know what the word should be) instead of a weekday '???'. It was know that the Japanese were getting agitated. More of the 'boneheads' screw-ups.

I think all the Pacific forces were supposed to be on a heightened state of alert, but "who would have the audacity to commit a sneak attack on a Sunday?"

Interesting about Johnson. Nice to know.

Oh yea - Johnson was no angel and he allowed himself to get sucked into many policy decisions from Robert McNamara who in my opinion "was so intelligent we actually became stupid." Although Nixon placated Viet Nam he eventually ended hostilities, but that "Peace with Honor" crap cost more lives on both sides.....But that's another thread

 

[KraziKanuK]

[quote="FLYBOYJ
I think all the Pacific forces were supposed to be on a heightened state of alert, but "who would have the audacity to commit a sneak attack on a Sunday?"[/quote]

Non Christian societies. Not sure what the holy day, if they have one, for the Japanese.

McNamara, absolutely agree.