closterman fact or fiction ?

[lesofprimus]

And I still think he made up events and claimed kills that either didnt happen or was credited with some of his squadron mates victories....

And as for that crap about him bein French, who gives a sh!t about what his nationality was, he's a liar....

 

[Njaco]

Galland was a Nazi, my family a victim of Nazism, i still can reconise a great pilot when i see one and read his book too.

I don't want to disparge your family and what happened but as far as I know, Galland wasn't a Nazi. He was a German pilot/ soldier fighting for his country that was under a Nazi government.

 

[Thunder]

"lesofprimus
And I still think he made up events and claimed kills that either didnt happen or was credited with some of his squadron mates victories"....

Sure...

So your specialist opinion is valid and that of other (real) withenesses is not...

Whatever your problem is, i will stick to the writings of those who were there and for your info, Clostermann and Galland were once friends, might well explain the snoring...


"lesofprimus
And as for that crap about him bein French, who gives a sh!t about what his nationality was, he's a liar"....

Say you, who resort to quoting the reaction of A Galland as an "evidence", at least i remember which side Clostermann fought for...

Not being able to read french is what the problem is from our PoV, even in modern warfare today, when in theater of Operation US reporters canot spell the name of our assets it leads to false records even in NATO official files...

So in 1943 i guess the records weren't that accurate either.


"Njaco
I don't want to disparge your family and what happened but as far as I know, Galland wasn't a Nazi. He was a German pilot/ soldier fighting for his country that was under a Nazi government".

Being a Nazi mean being a member of the Nazional Zocialist party, which Adolf Galland was even before the invasion of France, it doesn't make a criminal of him.

But what more does one have to do to be a Nazi then?

The Hawker Tempest Page

You guys will be pleased to know that despite of all your loving attention, Clostermann is recorded as the TOP Tempest scorer.

He never claimed 33 victories either but 23 confirmed and 10 probable, dont forget that he was French, fighting for the FFL and that as such responded to the French gouvernement and homologation rules too.


Aerial victories of Pierre Clostermann were confirmed by the British military authorities. However, the UK registration system, among other things based on an analysis of combat films, was known for its rigor, unlike the U.S. system which relied heavily on statements by the pilot alone. For 23 victories certified by the RAF, the French authorities said the aircraft destroyed on the ground and "probable" according to the rules in force in France. In these conditions, without calling into question the systems of French and British approval, the figure of 33 wins is the only approved that can be formally incorporated..
Accueil
attachment:/9/victoires.html

Reason are explained in this website and also painted on the side of the "Grand Charles".

I think i will leave the matter as it is. Regards, Thunder.

 

[Erich]

Bonjour Thunder

you may find this of interest as Pierre thought his wingman was shot down and his own Tempest shot to pieces the last week of the war in the ETO- May of 45 by ground based 2cm weapons when in fact he and his wingman were chased by 2 Me 262's of 10./NJG 11 and holed by 3cm Minengeschoss, Pierre is quite lucky he even made it to crash land his a/c

E ~

 

[Thunder]

Erich

One of the records is wrong, it doesn't make the pilots liars...

This is the point i am making, i do not think that these guys need to lie appart if even in some case to get where they want to be flying, who realy care?

He admit himself to have been shot down (at least) two times and to his own words he wasn't flying his (usual) aircraft and wasn't "modest" in one occasion.

12th May 43 and 21rst April 45.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDGzT-0zSZA

He said he was brought back in 35 sec to absolute modesty and total panic by a solo German pilot (vs 8 fighters) who demonstrated a 1-2-3 in a matter of seconds.

This guy doesn't need to lie, he can admit he was afraid and have been stupid in some occasions, btw he saw the German aircraft once he crash-landed, thought he was about to be straffed but didn't mention ME 262(s).

 

[Erich]

I am not making any point of any direction Thunder who is right or wrong just wanted you to take note of a correction in one of Pierre's books to place the truth and not incorrect data. am co-authoring a book on the above mentioned Me 262 unit in the future. we have interviewed both jet pilots for this late-war account for our book.

Erich

 

[Thunder]

Erich

Perhaps the comments of Clostermann are not describing the same incident.

I do not think your pilots shot the same guys, if they had been shot by ME 262 he would have known because he mentioned the German pilot in several occasions is this video.

First he saw the German aircraft passing over him because his engine shut-of and that of the German aircraft was still on, then he saw it again after crash landing....

I am neither trying to be confrontational nor implying you do or take side...

 

[Erich]

the incident occurred during the last week of the war Thunder, Pierre and his wingman never saw the jets as they zoomed from above and down on their tails, they were chasing Spitfires and Tempest shooting up civilian traffic in northern Germany, the night fighter unit was ordered to follow and shoot down any Allied A/c doing this type of operation with Pierre and his squadron doing the same. the two jets saw the Tempests from a distance and performed a perfect bounce and the wingman of Pierre was vaporized and Pierre almost died the same way. in one of his volumes he expresses the idea that defense was quick to act and he assumed incorrectly that it was ground based 2cm Flak. My co-author and I sent Pierre's biographer all the information which matched perfectly with most of the squadron that Pierre's account of the action except how he was almost downed. Pierre and his wingman never knew what hit them the attack was so sudden and swift, the two jet pilots banked off but had been watched by another spitfire squadron which then chased the jets as they were running of fuel, one jet escaped and our friend with a badly shot up 262 crash-landed the aircraft and jumped clear of the burning wreckage

 

[Thunder]

Nice recit infortunatly i'm curious to know how you come up with this when there is no record of Clostermann being shot between April and 8th May 1945...

He himself says clearly he was shot twice in aerial combat and give the dates he was wounded by flack but in Marsh 45...

You guys got your wires crossed big time.

 

[Erich]

sorry you are incorrect, we had long chatted with his personal biographer about the mission in May which Pierre when alive agreed to the findings. Pierre crashlanded with damage he does not account for being shot down only his wingman. He made it very clear his a/c was hit by 2cm rounds from Flak, so he thought

 

[Njaco]

What was Galland's Nazi party number?

 

[lesofprimus]

I guess Pierre is never wrong Erich and any data aquired to prove him wrong is incorrect....

Atleast to our frog-squeezing noob it is......

 

[Erich]

Les we may be talking of two seperate incidents. mine is extremely well documented from Clostermann's own mouth through his bio man. and placed in one of Pierre's volumes not sure which one as I do not own any of his personal works. his own 2 works that I know of have been re-hashed and re-written with the same mis-interpretations of actual events but some have been truly erased from the work(s) to be replaced by other stories. No matter to me what I have is an eye opener and yes I can see our friends denial of the true events as they have never been truly written down. we have pages of this single operation as told by the 2 German pilots and it correlates perfectly with the event of the two Tempests on that terrible days outing

 

[Thunder]

Denial, LOL...

So correct me if i'm wrong (Not that you're stoping yourself).

Your sources are always right, honnest, bits doesn't get erased or mystaking but those of other aren't so accurate isn't it?

Give us a break and come back when your sources doesn't countredict official records.

For your info RAF always record a crash landing due to adverse fire as being shot.

You give loads of recits and little evidences so much for your guys credibility, i don't think you have the exclusivity of honnesty...

Nice to see natural alliances forms the way they are though...

"Pierre crashlanded with damage he does not account for being shot down only his wingman".

WRONG.

Every Tempest pilot feared belly landing with it, this would not go un-noticed.

"He made it very clear his a/c was hit by 2cm rounds from Flak, so he thought"

NO mention of being Clostermann HIT by ANY adverse fire more precisely, when it happens it is recorded as such expecially if it leads to a crash landing; conclusions, i dont think you have been talking with Clostermann nor any of his pals.

Germany didnt have 20mm caliber flak BTW...

Something else, RAF fighters on straffing mission vs civilian road traffic.

WOW!

I didn't know bomber command took over Spitfire and Tempest Squadrons.

Erich; Your story is good Sci-Fi. Denke.

"Njaco
What was Galland's Nazi party number?"

You want his birth certificate too i presume?

 

[pbfoot]

Denial, LOL...

So correct me if i'm wrong.

Your sources are always right, honnest, bits doesn't get erased or mystaking but those of other aren't so accurate isn't it?

Give us a break and come back when your sources doesn't countredict official records.

For your info RAF always record a crash landing due to adverse fire as being shot.

As for Erich he gives loads of recits and little evidences so much for your guys credibility, i don't think you have the exclusivity of honnesty...

Something else, RAF fighters on straffing mission vs civilian road traffic.

WOW!

I didnt know bomber command took over Spitfire and Tempest Squadrons.

Nice to see natural alliances forms the way they are though...

I think Erich has proved his bona fide but you haven't I think your out of your league .

 

[lesofprimus]

And with that dipsh!t post, ur gone... Not asingle Frenchman can come here and deal with the dressing down of their countrymen.... Every one of u are the same.......

 

[GrauGeist]

Au revoir sac de douche...

Here's a summary of Closterman's *illustrious* career...

293 offensive missions
97 attack missions against ground targets
42 defensive/protection missions

Confirmed victories in air combat:
• 19 Focke-Wulf 190
• 7 Messerschmitt 109
• 2 Dornier 24
• 1 Fieseler 156
• 1 Junkers 252
• 1 Junkers 88
• 1 Junkers 290
• 1 Heinkel 111

Aircrafts destroyed or disabled during cannon raids on airbases :
• 7 Junkers 88 or 188
• 6 Dornier 18
• 4 Heinkel 177
• 3 Arado 232
• 2 Focke-Wulf 190
• 1 Junkers 252
• 1 Blohm Voss 138

Aircrafts severely damaged or probably destroyed during air combat
• 6 Focke-Wulf 190
• 6 Messerschmitt 109

Various confirmed ground and sea targets :
• 72 engines and a hundred trains attacked
• 225 trucks and other road vehicles, among them some 30 fuel trucks
• 5 tanks
• 2 torpedo boats
• 1 submarine in cooperation with other pilots

Now I see ol' Closterman ended up with quite the impressive (especially-when-told-to-your-drinking-buddies) talley, but if I'm not mistaken, our recently departed "friend" insists that Closterman didn't do ground attack?

Oh well...I wonder if that clown even knew that Closterman was born a Brazilian...

 

[Erich]

think a serious prblem of mis-interpreting my statements.

Germany did not have 2cm Flak my gosh you poor non studied sod !

no matter you're not worth repeating delicate and unknown info to, I knew this was going to happen, why some have made Clostermann a god is beyond me.

did I say anything about bomber command ? I hae the 2nd TAF source info besides.........really think the guy did not have a grasp of what happened the last months, the US strafed civilians as well sorry but it is true my familie in the Pflaz felt the brunt of that during op Thunderclap

 

[Becca]

When will they learn..does no one teach their children manners, anymore?? Gonna have to get Les a new meatball stamp.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

The sad thing is that I do not think that anyone here said the Closterman was a bad pilot. He was a great pilot and a great ace as well.

People are only disputing his claims. This happens quite a bit for aces from all countries. Everyone over claimed...