closterman fact or fiction ?

[Arsenal VG-33]

Reputations among the fighter pilot community are fragile. The fighter pilot community is brutal on 'claimers' - of any nationality, and particularly harsh on those that left their wingmen to fend for themselves while pursuing scores..

Agreed, and very well put.

I have no idea whatsoever whether Closterman was in that category.. Gabby Gabreski caused more than a few heads to shake for losing wingmen in Korea, as an example. To my knowledge he was not French.

I had no idea about Gabreski losing his wignman. But even if he was reprimanded for it, he never recieved the same scrutiny and derision that Clostermann did. Even Boyington, inspite of his heavy boozing and condescening behaviour towards others, is still well liked and admired. Are his claims questioned? Its a double standard.

 

[drgondog]

Agreed, and very well put.



I had no idea about Gabreski losing his wignman. But even if he was reprimanded for it, he never recieved the same scrutiny and derision that Clostermann did. Even Boyington, inspite of his heavy boozing and condescening behaviour towards others, is still well liked and admired. Are his claims questioned? Its a double standard.

Hell yes Boyington's claims were questioned - particularly his AVG claims while in China. As to being well liked and admired - maybe about as much as Yeager.. meaning 50/50 because of personality.

No, Gabreski was not reprimanded as far as I know. Stuff happens in air combat - but when you lose one, your peers have a tendency to ask 'how did that happen?".. implication 'was the score more important than you breaking off the chase to save your wingman.'

Gabreski was a brave, skilled and aggressive fighter pilot that also was a self deprecating and modest guy.. but came under some negative comments from his peer group.

 

[Arsenal VG-33]

Officers caught lying, screwing other guys wives, or cheating, were bounced out of the service (at least in US service) faster than you wrote that pathetic post. The US military takes "I will not lie, cheat or steal - or tolerate those who do' VERY SERIOUSLY.

Perhaps the US military of today has toughter standards than that of 65+ years ago? Are you saying there were no exceptions, whatsoever? What I said was a generalization, don't take it so literally.

 

[Arsenal VG-33]

Hell yes Boyington's claims were questioned - particularly his AVG claims while in China. As to being well liked and admired - maybe about as much as Yeager.. meaning 50/50 because of personality.

Interesting you should say that, because I've always greatly admired Yeager. But then I think you've touched on the crux of the problem - in the end it's all a matter of personal perception as to whether or not we take those men's claims seriously or not, in which case it's all conjecture and a matter of one's own personal opinion. A little "ace-worship" on top clouds any objectivity left.

 

[drgondog]

Perhaps the US military of today has toughter standards than that of 65+ years ago? Are you saying there were no exceptions, whatsoever? What I said was a generalization, don't take it so literally.

I could be persuaded that exceptions were made but offhand could not cite an example. As an example Don Blakeslee sent one of the top 8th AF aces, Gentile, home when Gentile buzzed Debden and cracked up his Mustang. I know of one pilot (shall remain nameless) who was sent home and bounced from USAF by my father when he was discovered committing adultery with a fellow officer's wife in Japan during Korean War.

I do not know of any 'claimers' dismissed or reprimanded - just held in contempt by his peers. USAAF, USN and LW certainly had several examples of fellow officer treatment/cold shoulder when 'enough is enough' of claims with no evidence.

I am not saying Closterman fits either profile - I simply don't know or have an opinion.

Summary -

Lying was NOT tolerated. Period. Court Martial offense

Adultery was NOT tolerated - during WWII or afterward. Court Martial and Dismissal.

Midnight requisitioning for critical items from another unit or service WAS tolerated most of the time.

 

[Njaco]

Arsenal,you may be referring to other forums but I can tell you that here there is no difference about which country an ace is from. I have read threads that questioned Hartmann's scores, Marseilles scores and don't even bring up Yeager! There have been a few choice words for him and others. Maybe you've only come across threads about Clostermann or one or two about others but most threads are duplicates - check the archive for old threads from '05, '06, etc. and you will see what I mean.

Nobody has a silver spoon here - they all get whupped on!

 

[Marcel]

But Closterman usually gets the worst. I think this is the 3rd or 4th thread about this.

 

[Njaco]

That could be. I've seen some pretty good rippin' on Yeager.

 

[FalkeEins]

... I have Chris Ehrengardt's book on French fighter pilots ('Pilotes de chasse français 39-45') open in front of me. Ehrengardt deals only in 'officially' confirmed victories. He slaughters Clostermann. I could quote from it quite easily, but Clostermann took legal action against the publisher had the book banned in France

 

[Amsel]

Just to play the devils advocate here; many aces had many more kills then their actual confirmed tally. I know in the LW the standards for counting a kill were tough and many pilots followed down kills and plotted the crash site just to have the kill not counted due to no officers being present to confirm. Is it possible to have a third more actual kills then confirmed?

 

[Timppa]

... However, he lies...

From an earlier thread..

Clostermann was an as*hole and a fraud, fu*k him....

You are supposed to be a moderator ?

 

[FLYBOYJ]

You are supposed to be a moderator ?

And on thie site moderators have, and will continue to voice their opinions.

 

[Maximowitz]

And on thie site moderators have, and will continue to voice their opinions.

He's also dead therefore not in a position to sue anyone for defamation of character.

 

[FalkeEins]

..problem is he has done in the past -he put Ehrengardt out of business - ..and I wouldn't mind betting that his family monitor threads like this one..

 

[Maximowitz]

..problem is he has done in the past -he put Ehrengardt out of business - ..and I wouldn't mind betting that his family monitor threads like this one..

Good point Neil. Neither would I come to think of it... I know of a couple of forums that have got into a lot of trouble from that sort of thing..

 

[lesofprimus]

And as for me and my opinion, its just that... Arsenal and Timppa, u can both blow me....

 

[Arsenal VG-33]

And as for me and my opinion, its just that... Arsenal and Timppa, u can both blow me....

Sorry Les, but my door doesn't swing that way, but if you're happy then thats great. Moving on....

 

[FLYBOYJ]

He's also dead therefore not in a position to sue anyone for defamation of character.

And even if alive he's a "public person" and can and will receive positive and negative opinions with no way to counter, at least the laws in country where this forum is operated from!

 

[FLYBOYJ]

..problem is he has done in the past -he put Ehrengardt out of business - ..and I wouldn't mind betting that his family monitor threads like this one..

See my last post - personally I could care less.

 

[Thunder]

I personaly think that the main problem for Closterman is to be French, as simpe l as that, had he been Polish he wouldn't be looking so controversial today for several reasons.

Just to remind you guys that the translation from french to english gives a totaly different colour to the book (i realy prefer the original version).

To finish i have to cast doubts about the claims of him being a liar, he told the story as it was even so he expressed himslef his own way.

Weither some people doesn't like him is another story altogether and doesn't take away his personal achievement.

Galland was a Nazi, my family a victim of Nazism, i still can reconise a great pilot when i see one and read his book too.

Regards.