confirmation procedure

[FLYBOYJ]

I would have figured that after the war, when the brits and americans were analyzing the air war, ultra dispatches might have been cited.

There are things gathered that are still classified 60 years later!

 

[Tommy Enfield]

[Udet, Perhaps you're right in stating that the Soviet verification system was unreliable at best, but it was the Luftwaffe that admited the loss of around 67% of its air strenght to the Russians, so let's stuck to the German system, though, after all they (the Soviets) did win the air battle in the East

Rgds TE]
Just one note regarding the soviet procedure to confirm victories:

it was everything but reliable. Of the main combatant nations in Europe it was easily the worst system.

The relied heavily on partisans reporting to confirm victories...something that speaks pretty much for itself.
_________________
In a national survey, 92% of the French people believed they are not ugly: 93% of them were wrong.
[/quote]

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

The Russians would also overclaim to boost the moral of there forces. They needed heros.

 

[Erich]

just s simple note written by Dutch Nachtjagd author Theo Boiten, and thusly also includes day time fighter vs bomber claims:

The contents of the separate files that you describe, by the way, strongly remind me of the individual reports that were compiled by the Wiesbadener Kommission, the official Luftwaffe body responsible for investigating each crash site of Allied a/c in WWII, and which was also responsible for crediting the aircraft shot down to individual Flak or fighter units/pilots. What I have gathered during my research is that the thousands of detailed files of the Wiesbadener Kommission (or 'Abschusskommission')have either been destroyed at the war's end, or have gone 'missing' in the spring of 1945 ...........

bummer I would say for us serious research types trying to fill in gaps

E ~

 

[lesofprimus]

Sever bummer... There are so very many gaps in the information available on pilot losses and kills.... Some missions are clearly accurate in the loss/kills for individual Staffel, but the next week, there is no info other than one pilot went missing....

I just blame it on the Russians burning everything when they rolled on through...

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Its a shame it would have been great to get hands on those and see them if they had not burned anything. Plus the modern German government makes it hard to see whats still available.

 

[Tommy Enfield]

Is not only the Russians, everybody over claim to create heroes!!!!

Udet, could you let us know the sources that lead you to conclude that the Soviet verification system was the worst of all???

 

[Tommy Enfield]

Udet,

Perhaps you may find this information useful. I recommend you to take a look at the following book; Stalin's Eagle by Hans D. Seidl, ISBN 0-7643-04776-3, Forewordws by Popkov Günther Rall. This german gentleman has spent a lot of his time researching on the achievements of the soviet air force during World War Two.

So le me quote him on the verification system issue:

"The guidelines were as follows;
1.- Written combat report giving a descrition of the aerial victory.

2.- Written testimony of one or more air and ground observers.

3.- Report of search party that the wreckage of the enemy airplane was recovered.



If an enemy aircraft was shot down over enemy territory, it was credited to the unit rather to an individual. Without a witness, a claim was not filed"

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

No body said that the Russians were the only ones that did that because they needed Heroes Mr. Tommy Enfield. Dont get an attitude with me Mr.!

 

[Tommy Enfield]

[Dont get an attitude with me Mr.!]
Mr Adler my mail was in response to Udet's, Sir

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Roger that Wilco!

 

[Soren]

Tommy, Udet isnt wrong though.

The Soviets relied heavily on Partisans to confirm kills, and it was the exception rather than the rule for Soviet pilots to follow your presented list of guidelines.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Every country overclaimed and every country made mistakes but I would venture to say the Soviets made the biggest overclaiming of the whole war.

 

[Tommy Enfield]

Hi chaps,

I guess the Japanese made the biggest overclaiming of the whole War (mainly because they didn't have a truly verification method) and besides that, Japan was not on the winning side anyways...

...and, as far as I know, but I could be totally wrong, the Soviets won the upper hand in the Eastern Front...regardless the overclaiming stuff...

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

The Germans were not on the winning side and I would go as far as saying they were not that bad in there claims. Yes they overclaimed also but compared to the Russians, the German overclaiming was minimal. So I would not say the Japanese were the biggest overclaiming because they were not on the winning side.

 

[Tommy Enfield]

[So I would not say the Japanese were the biggest overclaiming because they were not on the winning side]

I just said that they [the japanese]made the biggest overclaiming because they didn't have a truly verification system...and what I meant was that, Japan overclaimed, but they were losing a war and the Soviets overclaimed too but they were winning a war...an interesting point that, perhaps, deserves close attention, indeed.

On the other hand, I agree that the german overclaiming was minimal, just as the American and British overclaiming was minimal as well, and they (the Anglo-Americans) didn't need to overclaim, their system worked quite well. It is just that you cannot win a long war with a few experten. the Anglo-American system, designed to win a long war, was very effective indeed. It is better to have some aces with 5.33, 8.83 or even just 1 confirmed kills who survived to teach others how to do the same than to keep your veteran pilots flying time and again, almost restless until they were killed, although, of course Germany had no choice in this regard, anyways.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

By system do you mean the confirmation system? Because if you did, confirmation systems do not win wars. Pilots win wars and overclaiming does not have any effect on how a war is won. Also you say on a few experten, many of the experten survived the war. Germany had many pilots with over 100, 200 and even 3 I believe over 300 kills. Then there was the hundreds bettween 50 and 100 and even more from 5 to 50. These are not because of overclaiming. Germany just had more planes to shoot down.

 

[Tommy Enfield]

Totally agree with you Adler, verification systems and overclaiming are not winning factors..., which is true for the VVS (Soviet Air Force)...even though they (the russians) overclaimed, they won the War, which is what really matters. And according to what you are saying, it meant nothing for Germany in having hundreds of experten with 50, 100, 300+ confirmed kills...they couldn't stop the odds....and I understand what you meant in saying that the germans had lots of planes to shoot down; it is what is called a target rich enviroment, like the USSR in 1941-42

I got it all, so let's forget the verification system. I can conclude that if you have an excellent system which confirms that your hundreds of experienced pilots are detroying thousands of enemy planes, whilst your enemy relies on a peasant's word or a partisan's testimony, doesn't really make a difference at all, the Soviets still won the aerial (and ground) war.

Thanks and have a nice weekend!!!

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I got it all, so let's forget the verification system.

Forget about the verifications system, isn't that what this thread is about.

 

[Tommy Enfield]

Isn't a confirmation procedure the same as a verification system of aircraft downed?? Ok, it's good to know

Thanks Adler