wuzak
Captain
Of the last 2 years of service it sat waiting for repair for 13 months before being struck off charge. So no flying anywhere.
Could Axis aircraft catch the Mosquito in Dec 1941?
- Thread starter Freebird
- Start date
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buffnut453
Captain
Fair enough, assuming the records are correct (which they sometimes aren't). The SOC date could easily be arbitrary paperwork catch-up and the aircraft was actually scrapped long beforehand.
yulzari
Staff Sergeant
Picking up on the off topic trend. I thought the true break between UK and Australia was 1973 when the UK ended Australia's Commonwealth Preference status and joined it's neighbours in the EU.
parsifal
Colonel
The average life expectancy of a p-51 was 7-9 months under typical combat conditions. A B-17 was not likley to fly more than 25 mission before being lost written off or scrapped, and averaged about 1-2 missions per week. Thats a life span of 3-6 months.
These all seem terrible, until you look on the other side of the hill. For the germans, two flights out of an Me 109 on the eastern Front was good going. they may not necessarily be a total loss, but they would usually need some kind of repair or major overhaul. An Me 262 might get 10 hours out of its engines before being grounded.
Getting 2 or 3 or 4 years out of one airframe isnt exceptional, its a bl**dy miracle
wuzak
Captain
So, Mosquitos LR503 and LR504 would be considered truely miraculous.
Ian Thirsk, de Havilland Mosquito, An Illustrated History, Volume 2.
de Havilland Mosquito - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Gixxerman
Senior Airman
The really sad truth is that in fact Singapore fell due to Japanese bluff.
The Japanese forces were out of supplies (particularly ammunition, water foodstuffs) and the defending forces were unaware of this.
It is also largely a myth that 'the guns all faced the wrong way could not be turned around to face the invasion force'.
Thus Percival surrendered, completely unaware that the position of the besieging Japanese forces was at least as dire as his own and so Singapore entered the cruel murderous nightmare that was the Japanese wartime occupation.
Gixxerman
Senior Airman
Back OT.....
I must admit reading the specs of the Mossie the opposing LW single-seater fighters I have always been surprised (given the LW radar system control apparatus) that the LW was so ineffective in stopping the Mossie raids.
The Mossie PR effort (along with long range Spits) was a disaster for the German effort (the discovery planning of attacks on Peenemunde being a prime example) but the 'on the hour' 4000lb cookie attacks on Berlin going unanswered and unchallenged in any serious effective manner is utterly incredible.
I must admit reading the specs of the Mossie the opposing LW single-seater fighters I have always been surprised (given the LW radar system control apparatus) that the LW was so ineffective in stopping the Mossie raids.
The Mossie PR effort (along with long range Spits) was a disaster for the German effort (the discovery planning of attacks on Peenemunde being a prime example) but the 'on the hour' 4000lb cookie attacks on Berlin going unanswered and unchallenged in any serious effective manner is utterly incredible.
parsifal
Colonel
Unfortunately this is a near total myth that has arisen post war as a sap to the worst defeat the British have ever experienced in 200 years. Its true the Japanese were short of supplies. it is not true that they were down to just a few days of supply. it is untrue that the Japanese were so short of supplies that they were incapable of initiating the assault. What in fact was happening was that they were so confident of success in the final assault that large amounts of aircraft, transport, and troops were being transferred out of the theatre to other fronts, particularly Burma, where some difficulties were being encountered.
If the British had been showing any signs of life in their defence of Singapore, the Japanese would simply have slowed down or reversed the movement of supply, troops and aircraft away from this front for a while. they had complete command of the air, and complete command of the sea. The Singapore garrison was going nowhere except down, and fast.
So much has been made in these last few pages about the poor quality of the troops defending in Malaya. But that was a relatively minor problem for the British. their command system was so poor, their planning for requirements so bad in this particular campaign that the quality of the troops would have made no difference.
It would have been Australia's preferred option in 1939, when the AIF began to be raised was to send three of the four divisions planned to mkalaya in line with British defence thinking that had been in vogue since at least 1921. Instreead three of these divisions, the 6, 7 and 9th were sent to the Middle East, and two Brigades of the 8th sent to Malaya. If the three divs had been sent to malaya, under the british command that was in place historically, and with the logistic, naval and air support provided historically, we would have lost all three divisions. These ground troops were the equal of the Japanese, but they would have achieved very little more than the poor devils actually sent into that living hell. Malaya was lost for a multitude of reasons, but at the very top is the absolutely attrocious leadership displayed by the british in that campaign.
I am normally very supportive of the british in most debates, and can see the logic and good military sense that the british displayed in most of their wartime campaigns. no such support can be given to the british effort in Malaya. it was an unmitigated, inexcusable disaster, that really did light the fuse that destroyed their empire. I am amazed that there are still people prepared to perpetuate a whole range of myths so that the british reputation can wriggle out of the mess they themselves caused. You will never get even one word of sympathy or support from me when it comes to the british effort in malaya. From before the war to the bitter end, it was one long unmitigated stuff up.
If the British had been showing any signs of life in their defence of Singapore, the Japanese would simply have slowed down or reversed the movement of supply, troops and aircraft away from this front for a while. they had complete command of the air, and complete command of the sea. The Singapore garrison was going nowhere except down, and fast.
So much has been made in these last few pages about the poor quality of the troops defending in Malaya. But that was a relatively minor problem for the British. their command system was so poor, their planning for requirements so bad in this particular campaign that the quality of the troops would have made no difference.
It would have been Australia's preferred option in 1939, when the AIF began to be raised was to send three of the four divisions planned to mkalaya in line with British defence thinking that had been in vogue since at least 1921. Instreead three of these divisions, the 6, 7 and 9th were sent to the Middle East, and two Brigades of the 8th sent to Malaya. If the three divs had been sent to malaya, under the british command that was in place historically, and with the logistic, naval and air support provided historically, we would have lost all three divisions. These ground troops were the equal of the Japanese, but they would have achieved very little more than the poor devils actually sent into that living hell. Malaya was lost for a multitude of reasons, but at the very top is the absolutely attrocious leadership displayed by the british in that campaign.
I am normally very supportive of the british in most debates, and can see the logic and good military sense that the british displayed in most of their wartime campaigns. no such support can be given to the british effort in Malaya. it was an unmitigated, inexcusable disaster, that really did light the fuse that destroyed their empire. I am amazed that there are still people prepared to perpetuate a whole range of myths so that the british reputation can wriggle out of the mess they themselves caused. You will never get even one word of sympathy or support from me when it comes to the british effort in malaya. From before the war to the bitter end, it was one long unmitigated stuff up.
wuzak
Captain
I guess the answer is that until late in the war the LW fighters held only a marginal performance advantage, if they had one at all, over the contemporary Mosquitos.
And in only having that small advantage chasing the Mossies down took too long and range issues intervened.
parsifal
Colonel
dont forget also that for a Mosquito coming in at 30000 feet, they have an altitude advantage. If the 109 sent out to intercept is coming from the deck and climbing, and the Mosquito is gently gliding away, its going to take the Me109 time to get to altitude, and whilst climbing, it will not be able to reach full airspeed, whereas the mosquito diving away will exceed its max level speed
The LW did well to intercept as many PR Mossies as they did
The LW did well to intercept as many PR Mossies as they did
wuzak
Captain
With the radar systems in use there should have been enough advanced warning for Mossies flying at 30k, possibly, so that the defenders could reach altitude before the Mossie arrives.
parsifal
Colonel
True, but in that scenario a differnt problem arises. Say the aircraft takes off 20 minutes before the arrival of the intruder so as to gain height and position. If the interceptor has an endurnce of of 40 mins, and say it takes 10 mins to returnb to base and land, that only leaves 10 mins or so to put into effect an interception. if the mosquito dives away and opens the throttle so that his air speed is say 400mph, and the interceptor open his throttle and dives with him, but is still say 15 miles from the target (a range where airborne radar would easily detect the approaching german) the rate of closure would need to exceed the speed of the Mossie by more than 90mph to make the interception.
Getting into position with a high sped intruder when you only have limited enduraqnce, only makes the situation worse. better to take your chances with a scramble situation to conserve fuel and thereby increase your endurance....probably need multiple interceptors, acting in tag to complete the interception
The nominal engine MTBO of the Jumo 004B1 was 25 hours, it generally didn't get near that (except for the craftsmen built Jumo 004B0). Even then the engine was not scrapped but refurbished. The 6 combustion chamber cans (which were only plain mild steel) were replace. The turbine was x-rayed, and replaced for a further 12.5 hours if good. The Jumo 004B4 got closer to the 25 hour MTBO because of the cooler running hollow aircooled blades. However despite quotes by Galland it's also possible to find pilots talking of leaving engines 60 hours on the wing (if carefully handled). A new more sophisticated fuel control system supposedly to reach service in March 1945 was to prevent the fuel surges that overheated the turbine. It was commonly refered to as an accelerator valve or acceleration control valve but was more complicated than that.
Jumo 004 engine weren't overhauled on the wing. They were dropped of and sent to the workshop, new or recently overhauled engines rotated in.
parsifal
Colonel
were there a surplus of engines to keep the bird flying. if so it would be unusual for the LW to be in that position. More commonly there were shortages of engines that meant airframes with engines being repaired were kept grounded for long periods. was particulalry the case on the eastern front, which goes a long way in explaining why luftwaffe airframes were captured in their thousands by the advancing russians in 1944. That and fuel shortages of course.
Edgar Brooks
Senior Airman
But, for that to happen, you have to know where he's heading. P.R. pilots were given multiple "targets," and it was left to them to plan their route, and they never took exactly the same route twice. It's not much use taking 15 minutes to climb to where you think he's going to be, if, in the meantime, he's done a 90 degree turn, and is heading off in the opposite direction.
Kryten
Senior Airman
to intercept a fast aircraft you have to have a considerable overtake speed otherwise the slightest difference in angle of approach or altitude geometrically increases the distance to your target that you must then cover, put another way an aircraft with a 20mph closure rate in a straight tail chase is probably not going to get close enough before overheat or fuel become a major factor, so to catch a mossie your going to have to use a dive to increase your overtake speed enough to close on it in a reasonable time frame?
Gixxerman
Senior Airman
Parsifal my friend you have entirely the wrong idea here.
I knew little of the details of the fall of Sing, I was merely repeating what I had seen read on my almost month long visit there to the various museums historic sites back in 2009.
Relax, I couldn't alter anyone or anythings rep even if I wanted to.
Which I never had a moments intention of doing btw.
Back OT (ish).....
The thing that I found incredible was the lack of effective opposition to the Mossie raids on Berlin.
Given the target, the German radar coverage the frequency monotony of the cookie raids I just find it hard to understand why the LW response was so poor.
One thing to keep in mind is that the pilot of an aerodynamically clean aircraft, such as a Mossie, can gain significant speed by going into a shallow dive and that an opponent flying an airplane that has a higher drag coefficint will tend to fall behind.
parsifal
Colonel
Hi GX
I apologise for my completely over the top reaction. I do understand where you are coming from, and conceded there is some measure of truth to it. However, Singapore was a near unmitigated disaster, i think you would have to agree, and quitre possibly an avoidable unmitigated disaster. we played our part in that disaster, so not all blame should be levelled at the brits. Our child like tantrums must have driven the British command nuts at times.
Gixxerman
Senior Airman
NP mate, it's 2d text on a screen my friend, it's sometimes way too easy to get our meanings intentions a bit skew-wiff.
Yes you did and thank you.
I completely agree......and I have to admit my view of it previous to my visit was of it as a British military disaster (which of course it was) but I had almost no idea of what happened to the people of Sing under occupation, 'our' disaster pales enormously compared to theirs.
I promise not to mention a certain Aussie General who departed the scene if you don't. ;¬)
(I kid, I kid........ it's just one guy, not all Aussies I know there are at least 2 opposing distinct views of what he did)
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