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- #21
My question was could the Marine fighters on Midway be replaced by early P51's if everything was correct in the timeline. So they would be flying from Midway.
Could the P51A been made available for the Battle of Midway?
- Thread starter pinsog
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My question was could the Marine fighters on Midway be replaced by early P51's if everything was correct in the timeline. So they would be flying from Midway.
Shortround6
Major General
Maybe US marines are better than the RAF but the RAF got their first Mustangs delivered, by ship, in Oct/Nov of 1941, Flight tests are done in Jan, April sees the first issue to a combat squadron ( #2) and May 10th sees the first combat operation, an air field raid in coastal France.
You are going to need several months notice to acquire the Mustangs from the British, and either train teh Marines to US them stateside and then ship the unit to Midway or ship the planes to Midway and train the units there. How long did the US KNOW that Midway was the target?
You are going to need several months notice to acquire the Mustangs from the British, and either train teh Marines to US them stateside and then ship the unit to Midway or ship the planes to Midway and train the units there. How long did the US KNOW that Midway was the target?
syscom3
Pacific Historian
I have to look through my P38 book, but it would be reasonable to say a group could get there in short order. Maybe with a couple months notice, two groups if all P38's in the US were sent to Hawaii.
syscom3
Pacific Historian
Shortround; Midway was within extreme ferry range for P40's. The early Mustangs would have been able to fly there from Oahu.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Folks – just an observation here….
Midway emerged as a very "fluid" battle and as the old saying goes "you go with what you got." Look where some of the resources were by the time US and Japanese forces were lining up and how much time was available to prepare. For P-51As to be in place at Midway, the stars and planets would have had to line up perfectly. Unless there was a reason; and there was no reason historically (in retrospect) to believe that anyone anywhere would have had the inclination to have either P-51As (as they were possible rolling off the assembly line at Englewood) or for that matter P-38s in place at Midway.
Now not trying to totally rain on this parade, let's supposed that either aircraft made Midway in quantity; you still had green crews positioned at the tip of the spear without any defined tactics. If you look at VMF-221s mauling at Midway, aside from having inferior machines, these guys tried to flight the Zero on its own terms and paid the price for it. When the P-38 actually reached the South Pacific, there was at least a good one month period (November/ December 1942) before P-38s were sent out in combat and even then, most of the folks flying them already had experience flying against the Japanese in the P-39 and P-40. That month training along with experienced pilots evolved into a pretty potent force that started exterminating the JAAF in the air over New Guinea.
P-51As or P-38s IMO would not have made much of an impact except if they were able to supplement in quantity the obsolete aircraft that were stationed at Midway, and even then IMO it's questionable that either aircraft would have been operated in a capacity that assured combat effectiveness unless some of these hypothetical pilots would have had a week or two with Cmdr Thach prior to the battle!
Midway emerged as a very "fluid" battle and as the old saying goes "you go with what you got." Look where some of the resources were by the time US and Japanese forces were lining up and how much time was available to prepare. For P-51As to be in place at Midway, the stars and planets would have had to line up perfectly. Unless there was a reason; and there was no reason historically (in retrospect) to believe that anyone anywhere would have had the inclination to have either P-51As (as they were possible rolling off the assembly line at Englewood) or for that matter P-38s in place at Midway.
Now not trying to totally rain on this parade, let's supposed that either aircraft made Midway in quantity; you still had green crews positioned at the tip of the spear without any defined tactics. If you look at VMF-221s mauling at Midway, aside from having inferior machines, these guys tried to flight the Zero on its own terms and paid the price for it. When the P-38 actually reached the South Pacific, there was at least a good one month period (November/ December 1942) before P-38s were sent out in combat and even then, most of the folks flying them already had experience flying against the Japanese in the P-39 and P-40. That month training along with experienced pilots evolved into a pretty potent force that started exterminating the JAAF in the air over New Guinea.
P-51As or P-38s IMO would not have made much of an impact except if they were able to supplement in quantity the obsolete aircraft that were stationed at Midway, and even then IMO it's questionable that either aircraft would have been operated in a capacity that assured combat effectiveness unless some of these hypothetical pilots would have had a week or two with Cmdr Thach prior to the battle!
- Thread starter
- #27
Folks – just an observation here….
Midway emerged as a very "fluid" battle and as the old saying goes "you go with what you got." Look where some of the resources were by the time US and Japanese forces were lining up and how much time was available to prepare. For P-51As to be in place at Midway, the stars and planets would have had to line up perfectly. Unless there was a reason; and there was no reason historically (in retrospect) to believe that anyone anywhere would have had the inclination to have either P-51As (as they were possible rolling off the assembly line at Englewood) or for that matter P-38s in place at Midway.
Now not trying to totally rain on this parade, let's supposed that either aircraft made Midway in quantity; you still had green crews positioned at the tip of the spear without any defined tactics. If you look at VMF-221s mauling at Midway, aside from having inferior machines, these guys tried to flight the Zero on its own terms and paid the price for it. When the P-38 actually reached the South Pacific, there was at least a good one month period (November/ December 1942) before P-38s were sent out in combat and even then, most of the folks flying them already had experience flying against the Japanese in the P-39 and P-40. That month training along with experienced pilots evolved into a pretty potent force that started exterminating the JAAF in the air over New Guinea.
P-51As or P-38s IMO would not have made much of an impact except if they were able to supplement in quantity the obsolete aircraft that were stationed at Midway, and even then IMO it's questionable that either aircraft would have been operated in a capacity that assured combat effectiveness unless some of these hypothetical pilots would have had a week or two with Cmdr Thach prior to the battle!
Your not raining on my parade, if I knew all the answers I wouldn't be asking any questions. I feel the question in this debate has been answered. Very good points FLYBOYJ about the green pilots lack of good tactics. A Spitfire or P51 trying to dogfight with a Zero is just as dead as a Buffalo.
stug3
Staff Sergeant
Shortround6
Major General
But in May/June of 1942 they would be British fighters, not Army 
<SNIP> and even then IMO it's questionable that either aircraft would have been operated in a capacity that assured combat effectiveness unless some of these hypothetical pilots would have had a week or two with Cmdr Thach prior to the battle!
Or Claire Chennault ?
Conslaw
Senior Airman
Pinsog, I am going to at least partially agree with your premise, that IF early P-51s were present at Midway, they could have made an impact, even in limited numbers, and even with poorly trained pilots. The actual Marine pilots at Midway were pretty green at the time of the battle, but some turned into first class pilots. Midway was the combat debut of Marion Carl, for example. The natural characteristics of the P-51 would have lead to more survivable tactics against a superior number of first-team piloted Zeros. The P-51 was an energy fighter. The P-51s could boom zoom through the Japanese formation, presenting only fleeting targets to the Zeros. Even if there were four dozen A6M going against 2 dozen P-51, they had a chance at doing disproportionate damage as long as they didn't get into a low-speed turning fight with the escorts. A couple years later, during the American Pacific offensive, it wasn't uncommon for Navy Hellcats to attack larger formations of Japanese planes, usually with great success. Of course by then, US pilots had two more years of tactical lessons and most of the first team of Japanese aviators were gone. Under 20,000 feet, the early P-51 performed at least as well as the F6F except in turn rate.
I'm hedging a bit with my agreement, because even though the potential for a successful interception was there, in general the lack of experience at all levels for the Midway air defense made the entire effort one marked by underachievement. The P-51s could have underachieved as well.
I'm hedging a bit with my agreement, because even though the potential for a successful interception was there, in general the lack of experience at all levels for the Midway air defense made the entire effort one marked by underachievement. The P-51s could have underachieved as well.
drgondog
Major
I believe June 1942 too ambitious to deploy trained P-51A/Mk I squadron to Midway. Not even discussed is the Intelligence alert to Midway invasion by Japanese via Magic that would initiate a mobilization order to any so equipped P-51 squadron, get them to Los Angeles harbor (or San Diego), load them up and set sail, offload at Oahu/Pearl, get them ready to fly - and re-deploy to Midway.. and make Japanese spies at Pearl wonder why such a new airplane would be deployed HERE?
US Intelligence wouldn't risk THAT for any small tactical advantage the 51 might make.
US Intelligence wouldn't risk THAT for any small tactical advantage the 51 might make.
That's an interesting point. You're saying even if it were possible to throw together some kind of squadron, that rather extreme deployment may have tipped off our hand. I believe we did beef up that island, somewhat, but not to an extreme like that, that would draw that kind of attention.
syscom3
Pacific Historian
Correct. we were already beefing up the island with an assortment of aircraft. Why would they deduce their codes had been broken due to the appearance of several fighters?
As for small tactical advantage? A few P51's, P40's, P39's or P38's ripping through the best carrier bomber pilots in the world would be of immense tactical advantage.
The Marine pilots may have been green when it comes to combat experience, but were they low in flight experience too?
Did they have very little time in their Wildcats and Buffaloes ?
If they had some experience in the aircraft they flew, it seems you'd remove the one advantage they might have had if you put them in new aircraft, that they haven't had the chance to become comfortable in.
Did they have very little time in their Wildcats and Buffaloes ?
If they had some experience in the aircraft they flew, it seems you'd remove the one advantage they might have had if you put them in new aircraft, that they haven't had the chance to become comfortable in.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Many of VMF-221s pilots were just out of primary combat training.
"Leadership of the squadron was passed to Major Floyd B. Parks, with Kimes taking command of Marine Air Group 22. Much has been written of the inferiority of the Brewster fighter, particularly with regard to the Midway engagement. Many of Parks' pilots, fresh from flight training Stateside, had very little operational experience. This fact, combined with the overwhelming size and disposition of the Japanese force posed against the atoll's defenses, would have more bearing on the outcome than the operational capabilities of the F2A."
VMF-221 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://www.warbirdforum.com/midwayx.htm
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Providing you were able to get those aircraft rounded up and in place at the right time. Look at the time line when the US discovered the Japanese were attacking Midway, how long it took to reinformce the island, and what resources were made available.
Look at it this way, too. Our carriers were some 200 miles North of Midway when they launched at that Striking Force. Those carriers could very well have been parked right off Midway, had we wanted them there. Splitting them from Midway only goes to show how concerned we were about preserving that element of surprise.
Conslaw
Senior Airman
They were able to rush partial B-26 and TBF units to Midway. In both cases there were untried aircraft and partially trained aircrew. It's not out of the sphere of possibility that the Air Force might have wanted to try out the P-51. I recall seeing a picture of an early USAF P-51 (with 4x 20mmcannon) purporting to be taken during the Carolina war games from 10/1941 to 12/1941. Another new plane that participated in the Carolina games was the A-20 Havoc. If I were defending Midway, I would have rather had 20 A-20s than any other aircraft.
