Could the P51A been made available for the Battle of Midway?

[oldcrowcv63]

I don't believe the air defense of Midway was the critical issue here. With oir without F2As, P-40's/P-39s (of which there were evidently plenty in Hawaii), P-38s or P-51s. Midway was still going to be there with its pot holes filled on the return of its aircraft.

Had the F2A-3s on hand been used to escort the strike group, I expect more of both green aircrew and obsolescent aircraft would have survived. They might even have scored a few hits and provided a high altitude smoke plume for CV-Based boys to home in on... With more of both aircrew and aircraft viable at noon. The main purpose of the raid (destroying the aerial offensive capability of Midway island) would have been defeated. JMO...

 

[Shortround6]

They were able to rush partial B-26 and TBF units to Midway. In both cases there were untried aircraft and partially trained aircrew. It's not out of the sphere of possibility that the Air Force might have wanted to try out the P-51. I recall seeing a picture of an early USAF P-51 (with 4x 20mmcannon) purporting to be taken during the Carolina war games from 10/1941 to 12/1941. Another new plane that participated in the Carolina games was the A-20 Havoc. If I were defending Midway, I would have rather had 20 A-20s than any other aircraft.

Somebody screwed up the caption for the P-51. The ones with the 20mm cannon were the Mustang IAs or P-51s and they weren't ordered until July of 1941 and the first one delivered in July of 1942, First test flight was April 29 1942.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

They were able to rush partial B-26 and TBF units to Midway. In both cases there were untried aircraft and partially trained aircrew.

Because they were available....

"Eight B-17E Flying Fortresses of the 431st Bombardment Squadron (11th Bombardment Group) were deployed to Midway on 29 May 1942 and were joined by nine more the next day from the 42d Bombardment Squadron along with five B-26 Marauders (three from the 19th Bombardment Squadron (22d Bombardment Group) that were in Hawaii and two from the 69th Bombardment Squadron (38th Bombardment Group)). The Marauders were equipped to drop torpedoes and were under the command of Admiral Chester W. Nimitz, Commander in Chief, Pacific. In addition, B-17Es of the 3d and 72d Bombardment Squadrons (5th Bombardment Group) were sent to Midway in preparation for the battle."


Henderson Field (Midway) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It's not out of the sphere of possibility that the Air Force might have wanted to try out the P-51. I recall seeing a picture of an early USAF P-51 (with 4x 20mmcannon) purporting to be taken during the Carolina war games from 10/1941 to 12/1941.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_P-51_variants#P-51.2FMustang_IA_.28NA-91.29

On 16 April 1942, Fighter Project Officer Benjamin S. Kelsey ordered 500 A-36 Apaches, a redesign that included six .50 in (12.7 mm) M2 Browning machine guns, dive brakes, and the ability to carry two 500 lb (230 kg) bombs. Kelsey would rather have bought more fighters but was willing instead to initiate a higher level of Mustang production at North American by using USAAC funds earmarked for ground-attack aircraft when pursuit aircraft funding had already been allocated

On 23 June 1942, a contract was placed for 1,200 P-51As (NA-99s).

more on this....

Since appropriations were available for an attack aircraft, Echols specified modifications to the P-51 to turn it into a dive bomber. The contract for 500 A-36A aircraft fitted with bomb racks, dive brakes, and heavier-duty wing, was signed by Kelsey on 16 April 1942,[6] even before the first flight of the first production P-51 in May 1942.North American A-36 Apache - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Look at the dates of when contracts were signed and then the first flights took place. Midway started to erupt on June 5, 1942. Even if someone, somewhere wanted P-51s at Midway, they just weren't available, any other thought of this would just be the makings of a good fiction book....

 

[oldcrowcv63]

Midway started to erupt on June 5, 1942. Even if someone, somewhere wanted P-51s at Midway, they just weren't available, any other thought of this would just be the makings of a good fiction book....

Minor detail correction that does not invalidate your point in the least... In fact accentuates it. Battle fought from June 3 (starting with PBY attack on Akebono Maru) to about June 7th, with final preparations for battle (plane reinforcements, Rapid repair ( changes to air wing composition) of Yorktown beginning around May 27th if I recall. They fought with what they had immediately available, not what could be delivered in a month's or even a few weeks time.

 

[drgondog]

They were able to rush partial B-26 and TBF units to Midway. In both cases there were untried aircraft and partially trained aircrew. It's not out of the sphere of possibility that the Air Force might have wanted to try out the P-51. I recall seeing a picture of an early USAF P-51 (with 4x 20mmcannon) purporting to be taken during the Carolina war games from 10/1941 to 12/1941. Another new plane that participated in the Carolina games was the A-20 Havoc. If I were defending Midway, I would have rather had 20 A-20s than any other aircraft.

The P-51 sent to Wright Patterson in very late 1941 languished at Wright Pat, unflown, until ~ April 1942.

 

[Ivan1GFP]

At low altitudes (Below about 15,000 feet), the P-51A was the fastest version of the Mustang until the P-51H came along.
Problem is that Maximum Speed is usually quoted at 25,000 feet and the Mustang Mk.II made its best speed 409 mph at about 12,000 feet.
Another problem is that there were only about 300 of them ever built.

It is one of my favourites.
- Ivan.

 

[glennasher]

What warps my mind is that the Mustang sat around Wright Patterson for FOUR months before someone got in it and flew it. Surely some pilot walking down the flight line saw it sitting there and begged someone to let him fly the thing. It had to generate a LOT of interest sitting there. NO pilot sees what appears to be a fast little plane sitting around and doesn't want to get in it and see what it does.
Yes, I know the Army had it's priorities, and that flight-testing had to be done to iron out bugs and see what makes them tick, etc., etc. but surely someone had to know they had a lot of potential sitting there. I know the Army was really busy at the time, but it HAD to have had pilots drooling to fly it.

 

[Conslaw]

The first truly combat-ready P-38s were the F models. Per America's Hundred Thousand, production of -F models started February 1942 and deliveries began March 1942. The first E models sent to the Pacific Theater were sent to Elmendorf, Alaska May 29, 1942. Using just a little bit of imagination, those Alaska-bound aircraft could have been diverted to Midway. I'm sure other folks will have opinions about whether those -E models were ready for combat or not. It seems to me that the Air Force did not bust their buns to try to get the Es into combat, so it seems like the folks in charge didn't think they were ready. I think if the -E would have confined their tactics to "boom and zoom" they might have been okay. If they would have tried to dogfight, it wouldn't have been pretty. In the big picture, defense of Anchorage, Alaska was probably more important than defense of Midway Island.

 

[Aozora]

What warps my mind is that the Mustang sat around Wright Patterson for FOUR months before someone got in it and flew it. Surely some pilot walking down the flight line saw it sitting there and begged someone to let him fly the thing. It had to generate a LOT of interest sitting there. NO pilot sees what appears to be a fast little plane sitting around and doesn't want to get in it and see what it does.
Yes, I know the Army had it's priorities, and that flight-testing had to be done to iron out bugs and see what makes them tick, etc., etc. but surely someone had to know they had a lot of potential sitting there. I know the Army was really busy at the time, but it HAD to have had pilots drooling to fly it.

With 20/20 hindsight and 70 years knowing how effective the P-51s turned out to be.

However, in late 1941-early 1942 things would have been very different. For one thing the Mustangs would have looked like just another pursuit plane, not much different to the P-40; they might have received some second looks, but chances are no-one would have given them much thought. The USAAC/USAAF was still relatively small and was only just changing from a peacetime basis to a war footing. Priority would have been given to testing and approving bombers and attack aircraft. Long story short, Wright was probably short-staffed with a very long list of things to do. Like it or not testing another pursuit plane, when the P-40 was only just establishing itself, and the P-38 was still a work-in-progress, would have been down the pecking order. As it was the RAF's first Mustang Is were delivered to an operational unit in February 1942 and flew their first operations in July, so even if the Mustangs at Wright had been given top priority there's no way P-51s, let alone P-51As could have been operational with the USAAF or any other American unit until well after Midway.

 

[Shortround6]

The first truly combat-ready P-38s were the F models. Per America's Hundred Thousand, production of -F models started February 1942 and deliveries began March 1942. The first E models sent to the Pacific Theater were sent to Elmendorf, Alaska May 29, 1942. Using just a little bit of imagination, those Alaska-bound aircraft could have been diverted to Midway.

I think people are a little too used to modern deployments.

Also using AHT, it took the 1st Pursuit group, the only fully equipped P-38 group at the time, From Dec 8th ( initial elements arrive) until Dec 22 (movement complete) to from Selfridge Field ( just outside Detroit Michigan) to San Diego, California, Just under 2000 air miles. Ground elements of the group, (mechanics, cooks, support personnel, parts equipment) much more likely than not moved by train. The Air Corp NOT having a large number of big transport planes at the time.

ANY over seas deployment is going to take weeks (a lot more than 2) if not months to put into effect. Even if you can fly the P-38s using 75 gallon drop tanks the rest of the squadron/group is going to be traveling by ship ( even to Alaska).

To put any sort of Army fighters (or other aircraft) onto Midway that are not already in Hawaii in April/May of 1942 is going to require the US have several MONTHS fore knowledge of the Japanese plans.

The American code breakers confirmed Midway was the Target on May 21 or 22.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

The first E models sent to the Pacific Theater were sent to Elmendorf, Alaska May 29, 1942.

The American code breakers confirmed Midway was the Target on May 21 or 22.

25 P-38 were sent to Alaska, remember there was a diversonary attack against Alaska. Moving resources from Alaska might have given the Japanese suspicions or even tipped the American's upper hand.

 

[bobbysocks]

i think you would have been better off with A36s than 51As. you could harass and bomb the fleeing japanese fleet for a few more hundred miles where they thought they were home free. but i dont think the 36s were even off the assembly line until later that fall.

 

[davparlr]

P-51s could have been deployed to Midway for the battle and could have been effective and so too the B-26s IF

• US emphasized PTO
• AAF recognized the potential of the P-51
• Post Dec. 7, '41, P-51s diverted from delivery to England to the Philippines, re-diverted to Hawaii.
• 1st AVG reassigned to Hawaii. Claire Chennault in command of P-51 deployment and training. Only experienced AAF and Navy/Marine pilots assigned P-51s.
• Predisposition 40 P-51 to Midway, end of April.
• Divert 20-30 B-26s to Hawaii and convert to torpedo capable. Man with Navy torpedo trained pilot (or train them) and AAF pilot. No need to predispostion. Deploy after Midway identified as target
• Have torpedoes that work.

With a cover of 20 P-51s to harass the zeros, the 20 B-26s along with the Midway TBFs and SBDs (three out of the four B-26s at Midway, with no escorts, got close enough to launch torpedoes) could have put a world of hurt on the Japanese strike fleet.

Lotta incredible lfs and we won the battle anyway.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

P-51s could have been deployed to Midway for the battle and could have been effective and so too the B-26s IF

• AAF recognized the potential of the P-51

• 
  That's the biggest of of this "IF" scenerio
  

  [*]Post Dec. 7, '41, P-51s diverted from delivery to England to the Philippines, re-diverted to Hawaii.

  I believe there were about 55 Mustang Is at the factory built to British specs, the US did divert that batch, all were fitted with .50 cals (4)
  

  [*]Predisposition 40 P-51 to Midway, end of April.

  No one knew for sure Midway was the target then
  

  Lotta incredible lfs and we won the battle anyway.

  Yep! I just had to poke holes in a few of them though!

 

[davparlr]

That's the biggest of of this "IF" scenerio

I believe there were about 55 Mustang Is at the factory built to British specs, the US did divert that batch, all were fitted with .50 cals (4)

And that is the reason for the first "if". If the US government felt that Japan was a higher threat to attack the US, which it was, than Germany was, and considered the defense of Hawaii as a priority, then diverting the British order to Hawaii would make sense. Also, the second "if", recognizing the value of the P-51, must happen also.

No one knew for sure Midway was the target then

If PTO is emphasized then shipping these to Hawaii ASAP would make sense in that they would be available for defense of Hawaii or support other PTO efforts such as Midway, or Guadalcanal. Same with the 1st AVG. interestingly, the P-51 ferry range is just about 50 miles short of the distance to Midway from Hawaii. They had no drop tank capability. Therefore they would have to be repositioned by ship beforehand.

Yep! I just had to poke holes in a few of them though!

I don't mind the pokes. Makes me think.

 

[bobbysocks]

werent the avg's first group of p-40s supposed to go to the uk but got redirected?

 

[Shortround6]

I am not sure about "redirected".

A lot of the British planes being delivered in 1941/early 1942 had been ORDERED by the British PRE Lend-Lease. The Americans had very little say in redirecting these aircraft. What could be done was 'relinquish' a batch of planes to be replaced by a batch from future production. This depended on how badly the British needed the aircraft at the time. In the Summer of 1941 the BoB was well over with and the pointy nose P-40s were not what the British wanted for fighter planes. Giving up 100 of the pointy nose aircraft for 100 "E"s to be delivered a few months later wasn't a big deal. The British did NOT give up the engines though. The Engines for the Chinese (AVG) planes had to be obtained separately.

The Mustangs being delivered for most of the Spring of 1942 were the original two batches of planes which the British ordered BEFORE lend-lease. ONLY 2 planes were to be handed over to the USAAF.
Without the British agreeing to a deal of some sort the US would find itself in opening a real can of worms trying to redirect British owned aircraft.

 

[gjs238]

Without the British agreeing to a deal of some sort the US would find itself in opening a real can of worms trying to redirect British owned aircraft.

Are we talking about sailing up the Potomac and burning Washington?

 

[davparlr]

We could always trade them some AIM 9Ls to be provided at some future date!

 

[Shortround6]

Are we talking about sailing up the Potomac and burning Washington?

Stealing planes that the British paid for with the last of their actual cash/gold is hardly going to foster future co-operation.

Like equipping two US fighter groups with Spitfires and keeping them equipped for just under two years to the tune of almost 600 Spitfires supplied. Or the provision of Beaufighter and mosquito night fighters to US units. Provision of 100/150 octane fuel.

The British agreeing to a deal is one thing, just taking aircraft (or any other equipment) that are on US soil because the US thinks it's needs are greater without taking into consideration British needs or plans is hardly to the way to forge an alliance.