Could the P51A been made available for the Battle of Midway?

[drgondog]

Land based with the Marines, it could have been deployed in place of the Marine Wildcats and Buffalos at Midway . With the Fleet in place of Wildcats.

Impossible for F4U and P-51 to be at Midway based on the development process prior to Dec 7, 1941.

The production F4U wasn't flown until June 25, 1942.

The Contract for the P-51A was not let until June 23, 1942.

The AAF was so desperate to get the P-51 into combat that they didn't start evaluating the XP-51 until March 1942 at Wright Pat, some four months after delivery.

Only the Mustang I was in production in sufficient numbers had the AAF snatched them from RAF before Pearl Harbor, deployed in one to two squadron strength for training, and cunningly sent immediately to Hawaii/Midway in time for the battle. Would have to replace a P-40 FG, so as to capitalize on Allison maintenance experience

The P-51-1, which later became F6, first flew in May 1942.

The ONLY possibility for a P-51 to fight at Midway would have been if the AAF a.) recognized the value immediately and tested immediately for tactical evaluation, and b.) acceptable modifications immediately acted upon by NAA, and c.) diverted them to a ready to deploy P-40 FG, and d.) deployed them in the March 1942 timeframe to Hawaii.

 

[pinehilljoe]

Impossible for F4U and P-51 to be at Midway based on the development process prior to Dec 7, 1941.

The production F4U wasn't flown until June 25, 1942.

The Contract for the P-51A was not let until June 23, 1942.

Of course, these are merely what ifs. But the Corsair did fly 2 years before Midway, if funds were provided and red tape cut, its an interesting what if.

 

[Peter Gunn]

I think the only way the Mustang or the Corsair for that matter to get into the Battle of Midway is if the Japanese attack Pearl Harbor at a much later date, six to eight months later. That would push the Midway contest further into the Mustang (and Corsairs) development cycle, so that and a couple of bucks will get you a cup of coffee.

 

[GrauGeist]

Of course, these are merely what ifs. But the Corsair did fly 2 years before Midway, if funds were provided and red tape cut, its an interesting what if.

Then the Corsair would have been plagued with problems and would have most likely cost not only lost aircraft, but lost pilots as well.

Several types were cursed like this, the Typhoon, the Me210 and so on.

As it stands, the P-40's performance was on a level of the P-51/P-51A by the battle of Midway, so the P-51's presence may have been more of a liability than a blessing.

 

[Shortround6]

Of course, these are merely what ifs. But the Corsair did fly 2 years before Midway, if funds were provided and red tape cut, its an interesting what if.

I am not sure on the red tape? The Navy got the prototype to test in late Oct 1940, it completed testing at the end of Feb 1941. Within 6 days the Navy had issued a letter of intent to enter into a production contract. While the contract is not placed until June 30th this may (or may not) have to do with budgets. There were hundreds of changes requested from the prototype. Production started in July (of the first was the end of June) but the first squadron to see combat doesn't see combat until the middle of Feb 1943.
You would have to cut 8-9 months out of the development/production time. 1st squadron to see combat didn't see their first F4U until late Sept 1942. From Wiki:
" VMF-124 was formed on September 2, 1942 at Camp Kearney, San Diego, California. They were declared fully operational on December 28, 1942 even though the squadron's pilots had only an average of 25 hours each in the plane."
The Corsair was built in Stratford CT, almost 2500 miles from San Diego. I don't know if the planes were flown cross country, shipped by rail or sent by ship through the Panama Canal.
Getting planes into service quicker in some of these "what ifs" seems to rely on cutting into training time for pilots and ground crews which would rather blunt the effectiveness hoped for.
The first Navy squadron to get Corsairs, VF-12, lost 14 pilots killed in training flights before getting to the south Pacific. They gave their Corsairs to the Marines and re-equipped with F6Fs.

 

[BiffF15]

Or the USN / USMC could have set up the F-4U school house in CT. Would have cut down out all the shipping time / delays...

 

[Shortround6]

I think a few of the later squadrons did train in Rhode Island. But you still need to get the planes from New England to somewhere in the Pacific to go into action.
Perhaps they should have sent the Corsairs to Europe and the P-51s to the Pacific. Each factory would have been 2500miles closer to the front lines.

British Mustangs did go as deck cargo from Los Angles through the Panama canal and up the east coast to be formed into trans-Atlantic convoys.

 

[pinehilljoe]

I think someone said earlier, the P-40 at Midway is more plausible. Imagine two P-40 squadrons at Midway. But Europe First prevented that.

 

[GrauGeist]

I think someone said earlier, the P-40 at Midway is more plausible. Imagine 2 P-40 at Midway. But Europe First prevented that.

The P-40 was in Hawaii, China, Philippines and the Dutch East Indies before the Battle of Midway.

But because of the island's distance from other airfields, only Navy fighters were on hand. The Army did contribute B-17 and B-26 aircraft for it's defenses, but getting an Army fighter onto a predominately Navy controlled installation was not going to be very likely at this early point in the war.

 

[wuzak]

As it stands, the P-40's performance was on a level of the P-51/P-51A by the battle of Midway

Was it?

 

[drgondog]

By Midway the only P-51 types were the Mark I with the 1710-39 engine. It was faster than the P-40 but it didn't have the improved ailerons and would not roll as fast or turn as well as the P-40. The Merlin version was the one that made the P-51B far superior to the P-40K/N - except in turn and equal/near equal in roll.

 

[drgondog]

SR - Most of the P-51s that went to UK went to Newark to load up - then on to Liverpool.

 

[Shortround6]

Thank you, I read that the first ones to England went via the Panama Canal.

 

[Shortround6]

In the Summer of 1942 you had a mishmash of P-40s. You had a number of the -Es floating around with the -39 Allison. You had the -F with Merlin which started production in Jan 1942 but numbers may have been small in the spring and the -F was slated for North Africa. The -K with the -73 engine started production in May of 1942, replacing the -E but a P-40 in Buffalo New York in May is never going to make it to Midway by June.

Things were pretty thin in the Pacific even in late spring/early summer of 1942. As an example on March 18th 1942 it was reported that total of 337 P-40s had reached Australia. Out of these 125 had been lost in the fighting around Java, some by accidents, 75 were given to the RAAF, 74 were undergoing repair, 100 are waiting for assembly and only 92 are in commission (+85 P-39s out of 190 arrived).

The numbers do not add up but the Langley was sunk with 33 33 P-40s on board while trying to reinforce Java and the Sea Witch did deliver 27-P-40s in crates but they were dumped in the sea still crated to avoid capture by the Japanese.

Point is that jumping though hoops to change time lines to get 12-24 brand new fighters with barely familiar pilots and ground crews and little or poor back up for parts didn't have much chance of changing the out come of a 1-3 day battle.
Also the Army fighters (P-40 and P-39) weren't sitting around doing nothing, they were actively engaged in several areas from China to the Aleutian islands at around the time of Midway (even if not engaging on the same day/s).

 

[drgondog]

SR - I'll get the IARC. The very first one was crated and sent through the Canal but the process was changed to crate them in Newark. That said I am not sure when the change took place but guessing Dec 7 might mark the 'change'.

 

[Glider]

An interesting thought would be if the Ki44 was available for the Midway era

 

[Greg Boeser]

First Ki-44s were in action in Malaya and Burma in early 1942. One independent chutai. They were recalled to Japan for home defense after the Doolittle raid. Production was slow and the first Ki-44s to reappear outside the Home Islands, were a handful that trickled into China in mid '43. Of course, the Ki-44 was an army plane. Not going to see them on carriers.

 

[oldcrowcv63]

While I don't have confirming figures, It seems like the one 'superior performing' aircraft that might have been available in numbers roughly equal to those of the marine F2A-3 were F4F-3 and perhaps a few F4F-4s based at Pearl Harbor. 7 of those F4F-3s were sent on the Wright but cargo space was limited due to the 16 SBDs she also carried. If a few F4Fs had been sent out to Midway on each of the carriers assuming they came within range during their sortie to the Northwest of the island, then perhaps they could have replaced or been added to bolster the number of F2A-3s flown by the same marine pilots who ferried them in from the carriers.

I think as big an issue preventing the replacement or addition of better fighter types was the space available on the island, and perhaps a reluctance to change the fighters due to the USMC pilot's familiarity with F2A. VMF-221 were trained and familiar with flying and fighting (in practice at least) in the F2A. Statistically the F4F's did a bit better than the F2As but not much better and only in the rather critical but not battle winning parameter of numbers of pilot's who survived. As big an issue may have been the Naval Command's mistaken belief that the F2A-3s flown by US Pilots were at least on a par with machines flown by the IJN, despite or because of, the limited number of reports in the prior 5 months. Midway's panning of USN fighters was still in the future. Maybe not, but we know what was done and what might have been done and perhaps, in retrospect, what should have been done... (push the F2A-3 into the sea as soon as possible to make room for F4F's or P-40s whenever they could be made available) which in the case of the P-40 was what ultimately happened, if I recall.

 

[Glider]

First Ki-44s were in action in Malaya and Burma in early 1942. One independent chutai. They were recalled to Japan for home defense after the Doolittle raid. Production was slow and the first Ki-44s to reappear outside the Home Islands, were a handful that trickled into China in mid '43. Of course, the Ki-44 was an army plane. Not going to see them on carriers.

True of course but then so is the P51.

 

[Greg Boeser]

The appearance of the Ki-44 in China came as a nasty shock to Chennault's boys who up to then had had a field day with the Ki-27s and Ki-43s. They considered it better than the P-51.