Defence of the Reich
- Thread starter bob44
- Start date
Ad: This forum contains affiliate links to products on Amazon and eBay. More information in Terms and rules
davebender
1st Lieutenant
G series nerve agent would be more effective and it was already in mass production.
As soon as someone uses nukes or chemical weapons any remaining traces of civilized behavior would disappear overnight. Europe (including Britain) would become a very grim place. I'd rather not contemplate the end result.
As soon as someone uses nukes or chemical weapons any remaining traces of civilized behavior would disappear overnight. Europe (including Britain) would become a very grim place. I'd rather not contemplate the end result.
Siegried is no longer with us for obvious reasons. Don't lower yourself by insulting someone who does not have the ability to answer back.
CobberKane
Banned
- 706
- Apr 4, 2012
I think this is simplistic, if only because it was never inevitable that Germany would wind up facing the combined allies. The BoB and BOA were close run things - if the Germans had managed to take the UK out it is not difficult to iumagine they might have done the same to the USSR before the USA got involved and made the difference it did. I'd say they were in the game up until Dec 7 1941.
bobbysocks
Chief Master Sergeant
they did launch a lot at night but they had a tell tale flame trailing behind them that was easy to spot. many were shot out of the skies by the women manning coastal AA.
didnt they have "heavy water" plants in norway??
just think of the effects of a german A bomb at normandy, stalingrad, kursk....
Last edited:
parsifal
Colonel
Putting aside all the arguments about rockets, and jets etc, my opinion is that the critical shortage facing the LW was fuel and pilots. Without either of these Germany was doomed. And given that the german offensives of 1942 were stalled and then rolled back in the latter part of 1943, and manpower beginning to run dry, it becomes absolutely essential to make some sort of peace , even if just temporarily, on the Eastern Front. A truce will reduce manpower losses and reduce fuel demands, and will dramatically reduce LW attritional losses. From that pointa number of promising opportunities arise.
A negotiated peace or truce with the Russians was a very remote possibility, but maybe possible
A negotiated peace or truce with the Russians was a very remote possibility, but maybe possible
Yes. The Germans were using "heavy water" as the moderator in their experimental reactor at Haigerloch. Another indication of how far away the Germans were from a bomb is that this reactor was too small to go critical and no Plutonium was ever going to be produced by it.
Others have pointed to the existence of various German technologies for the enrichment of Uranium and these did exist,like the reactor,in "laboratory form".No evidence of an industrial programme for the production of weapons grade material has ever been found. Seperating the isotope needed (U235) from the rest is extremely difficult. The allies built a huge enrichment plant at Oak Ridge Tennesee as part of the Manhattan Project. There was no German equivalent.This stage is apparently the major stumbling block for the Iranian effort today.
The Germans were operating a small reactor in a cellar under a church in Southern Germany (not far from Stuttgart) with a handful of scientists and technicians. The Allies were running a huge industrial complex employing thousands of people including physicists from around the world. It was financed with billions of dollars.Not only was there the famous site at Los Alamos but many other sites,including reactors and an enrichment plant,across the entire United States.
To add further perspective a Soviet team investigating the German "Uranium Project" at the Kaiser Institute reported.
"They [Germans] have experimentally observed the beginning of a chain reaction (neutron multiplication). As a moderator they used heavy water obtained from Norway. We found two five-liter cans of heavy water labeled Norsk Hydro. We also found some metallic uranium and several kilograms of uranium oxide."
Don't be confused by a few kilograms of Uranium Oxide. 99.3% of that mass is useless for an atomic weapon!
The nazi bomb myth,like all myths, tends to fade in the face of facts and hard evidence.There will always be a Rainer Karlsch or a Thierry Meyssan (rubbish about 9/11) who will cash in and make a few bob with an outlandish theory which preys on people's gullibility and lack of will (or ability) to carry out the most basic research.
Cheers
Steve
Readie
Chief Master Sergeant
There were lots of close squeaks but, and here is the important point. The nazi war machine would not deliver the 'knock out blow' in either the BoB, BoA,Russia or in North Africa. There are many reasons why this happened but, it did.
Cheers
John
Any kind of truce or compromise in the East would not only fly in the face of German policy but more importantly nazi ideology.
For this to have been even a remote possibility there would have had to have been a change of government in the Reich and that was hardly likely in 1943.
Cheers
Steve
For this to have been even a remote possibility there would have had to have been a change of government in the Reich and that was hardly likely in 1943.
Cheers
Steve
parsifal
Colonel
i agree, but not beyond the realm of possibility. there were a couple of minor stirrings within the Nazi hierachy after Stalingrad that make this at least a possibility. there was some talk of making Manstein the CinC OKH, a new position that would have restore some professionalism to German operations and command structures in the East. its a short walk from that point to getting a peace deal worked out. Peace feelers were extended by both sides after Stalingrad, but neither side was prepred to give ground, and it all came to nothing. Something akin to the rise of Ludendorf in imperial Germany was needed, so this would not haver been a precedent. Just unlikely and difficult given the Nazi hold on power
Because it suited the nazis,and the Soviets,that is it suited both sides.You can't make a truce if the other side won't accept one.
By 1943 it was far too late. Hitler's war of annihilation and its associated genocide was in full swing. Various infamous Fuhrer befehl had been issued,aimed at "Bolsheviks" that is the ruling party in the Soviet Union. Most importantly why on earth would the Soviets agree to such a thing? By 1943 Stalingrad was saved,the 6th Army was destroyed and the Soviets had a real live German Field Marshall to parade for the cameras.Around the same time the siege of Leningrad was finally lifted. By mid '43 the Germans had been smashed again at Kursk. The Soviets were winning and they knew it.At the Casablanca conference in January 1943 the "big three" had agreed on the unconditional surrender of Germany. The Soviets didn't much like this at the time but they weren't going to stop,to some extent for their own ideological reasons,until they got to Berlin. Come to some accomodation or truce with the nazis....not a chance.
Cheers
Steve
I can see that the Soviets probably would not accept any kind of ceasefire, treaty, or whatever from Germany, because they had no problem remembering how well their last agreement with the Nazis worked out. The only way they would trust a German now, was if they were standing on his neck.
But from the German viewpoint, which usually had little connection with reality, there's no reason they shouldn't approach Russians with a offer.
But from the German viewpoint, which usually had little connection with reality, there's no reason they shouldn't approach Russians with a offer.
Readie
Chief Master Sergeant
Had the Nazi's Hitler studied history and Napoleon in particular they would see how quickly things can unravel after squandering your best soldiers on the Russian steppe.
John
John
- Thread starter
- #56
Read post 53.
I respectfully disagree.
If properly handled, there is a good chance that Germany could have made the USSR a very tempting offer in the middle of 1942.
This would have to come hard on the heels of the twin catastrophes suffered by the USSR that Spring/early-Summer: Manstein's rout of the Soviet armies in the Crimea/Kerch penninsular and the subsequent "smackdown" of the Red Army's offensive at Kharkov. (Incidentally, German airpower played a huge part in both of these operations).
If Germany had made a proper diplomatic approach in this period, one can not be 100% certain as to how this would be received in Moscow; saying there was "absolutely no chance" is not supportable...because this diplomatic approach never happened.
As it was, in light of these massive defeats dealt upon the Red Army (and they were truly "massive"), Hitler was now convinced that the planned offensive (Blau) would succeed in engaging/destroying the remainder of the "core" Red Army field formations.
With hindsight, we know that this was not the case.
At the time (important:with the available intel), it would have been a much harder task to predict the likelyhood of a "successful" outcome for Germany, but the odds may have well seemed worth the risk.
Regardless, this point in the war would have offered the best chance for Hitler to draw the line, largely on his own terms...and he was a fool to ignore this as an option.
But this is hindsight...and Hitler was Hitler, so this makes discussing it pointless.
And this is way off the topic of "Defense of the Reich"...LOL!
Shortround6
Major General
Once you leave the area of strategic "Defense of the Reich" (cutting down the number of opponents) you enter the area of tactical (or grand tactics?) "Defense of the Reich" and no matter what the Germans did that was only going to buy weeks or at best months before the end and a higher cost for both sides.
Which is fair enough. You're right about hindsight but that's why,bearing in mind the overall global political and miitary situation,I will still maintain my contrary view. Of course we'll never know
Cheers
Steve
