Ad: This forum contains affiliate links to products on Amazon and eBay. More information in Terms and rules
Lets start with the P51, p47, p38, spitfire, tempest, 109,190. Lets assume late models of each without factoring in mechanical failures. Lets leave out post war/extremely late war models like p51h and ta152h for now.
And Stoyan Stoyanov of the Royal Bulgarian Airforce (Bf109D/E/G-2 G-6)All your candidates are fighters, B-K, so I will focus on the Bf-109 .... and only consider one factor .... kill record. In the hands of experten, the Me 109 was lethal and to remain such for almost three-quarters of a decade is a great tribute to German engineering skill. And it was inexpensive to manufacture.
I stand to be corrected on this but, did any other WW2 fighter serve as many high scoring Aces as the 109 did? The Finns, Romanians, Hungarians and Spanish volunteer pilots all flew the 109 with distinction as well as Germans.
Bad-Karma,
I will throw the game ball to get things started!
P-38J/L:
Performance:
Hi dive speed, dive brakes, long range, no P factor / torque, two engines, high service ceiling, reasonably maneuverable with boosted controls, excellent acceleration
Weapons:
4 x .50's and 1 x 20mm (concentrated) with no point of convergence issues (single biggest strength)
Detriments:
Switchology to go from cruise mode to combat mode (post external tank jettison) very cumbersome, large, unique shape (could be both plus and minus)
Cheers,
Biff
Even with dive flaps and boosted controls the P-38J-25 through the L models still reached compressibility at ~ 68M. The only difference is that they became controllable in a dive but the 109 and 190 could reach significant advantages in a dive.Bad-Karma,
I will throw the game ball to get things started!
P-38J/L:
Performance:
Hi dive speed, dive brakes, long range, no P factor / torque, two engines, high service ceiling, reasonably maneuverable with boosted controls, excellent acceleration
Weapons:
4 x .50's and 1 x 20mm (concentrated) with no point of convergence issues (single biggest strength)
Detriments:
Switchology to go from cruise mode to combat mode (post external tank jettison) very cumbersome, large, unique shape (could be both plus and minus)
Cheers,
Biff
Thank you for the responses everyone this will set a nice sort of baseline for discussion
Im glad you chimed in as I think you will have the best input as far as tactics go. What I was invisioning with this thread was more situational than hard stats which has been discussed. It seems when trying to calculate the hard stats the conclusion is usually that the performance is close enough that its mostly the pilot that matters. With that in mind let me propose an example.
P51D meets Fw190D-9 at 25000 feet. Both at aproximately the same altitude. Now both are high speed and great in a dive. Maneuverability is sort of debated between the 2. What sort of advantage (turning, speed, etc) would the p51 try to gain over the d-9 and vice versa to win the dog fight. You can apply the same argument to all the planes. Even the P51 vs a P47 for example. ...
An important attribute is roll response as this governs how fast a plane can start to turn and even more important, how fast it can reverse a turn ( go from turning left to turning right). A good rolling plane can follow another much better and can reverse a turn on a poor rolling plane (even if the poor roller is a good turning plane once the turn is initiated. Unfortunately peak roll rate is not quite the same as initial roll response and both vary considerably with both speed and altitude.
The FW 190 was noted as a very good rolling airplane, in fact one of the very best and this in the hands of a good pilot can make up for a lot of other differences, if they are not too great.
From Mike Williams site: http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/naca868-rollchart.jpg
A couple of notes, This is at 10,000ft and for 50lbs stick force. different altitudes and different stick forces can change things.
This is also for indicated airspeed, True air speed at 10,000ft for 180mph IAS is about 216mph, for 240mph IAS it is about 288mph and for 380mph IAS it is 456 mph ( pretty much all planes would be in a dive to hit that speed at 10,000ft).
Planes bleed off speed in hard turns very quickly and most are going to near best climb speed (most excess power) after a full 360 or two if they haven't started to loose altitude. That or they are hanging at stall speed.
Minor differences can almost be discounted ( or perhaps factored on a sliding scale?) like a difference of 10-15mph in level flight. It is not enough to allow one fighter to gain a dominate position over the other or to enable the faster plane to break away by speed alone, however a speed difference of 40-50mph may allow either to happen. Top speed is speed in level (neither climbing or diving) flight and unbanked. Once the plane banks the lift decreases, drag increases and speed drops. Rather obviously planes do not fight at top level speed but it is a useful indicator of somethings.
A lot of times pilots used combinations of attributes to gain an advantage or to disengage. Spitfires turned well and climbed well so they could often use a climbing turn to disengage rather than a dive. This kept a pursuer from getting a straight away shot at them and even a 109 which might be able to out climb them could not climb and turn as well at the same time.
This makes it rather hard to look at a short list of specs and pick "bests" as the pilots were often combining two or more attributes rather than focusing on one.
For instance a p-40 with a Zero on it's tail can go into a dive ( a common escape procedure) knowing that not only can he out dive a Zero, both in top dive speed and initial acceleration into the dive but once in the dive he has much better aileron control and can change direction in the dive much easier than the Zero can. A Zero that tries to dive away from a P-40 is in big trouble.
It seems more simple to look at the pacific theatre because (at least early on) all the Japanese strength was in turning while the early american planes didn't have the speed or the climb to effectively use energy tactics.
Thats what makes the eto so facinating to me since all of the planes were essentially built for the same tactics and very close in performance.
Minor differences can almost be discounted ( or perhaps factored on a sliding scale?) like a difference of 10-15mph in level flight. It is not enough to allow one fighter to gain a dominate position over the other or to enable the faster plane to break away by speed alone, however a speed difference of 40-50mph may allow either to happen. Top speed is speed in level (neither climbing or diving) flight and unbanked. Once the plane banks the lift decreases, drag increases and speed drops. Rather obviously planes do not fight at top level speed but it is a useful indicator of somethings.
As for a P-51D / Fw-190D-9 co-altitude merge at 25k I think it would boil down to the one who makes the fewest mistakes. Their strengths / weaknesses are pretty close with the biggest difference or advantage probably going to the one who had the least excess weight (fuel).
A Mustang on the way home, near the front lines, fighting with a Fw-190D just after takeoff would favor the Mustang (assuming Fw has full internal fuel, Mustang running on less than half fuel load). Same players deep over Germany, Fw-190D airborne for about an hour and the tables turn. The Mustang driver has to watch his fuel state (can't stay long) so he needs to pretty much be quick about his engagement, while the Fw-190 driver has the "luxury" of fighting over his own country (can land anywhere or bail out without fear of being captured).
The Mustang at say Magdeburg or Halberstadt ~500 miles from East Anglia will still have his externals and nearly all of his internal fuel except for some burn off of the fuselage tank to improve Cg. Consequently the 51 will still have 200-240 gallons of 269 if the fight starts at the target (more likely). Only if the Mustang is nearly back to, say, Holland will the internal fuel be burned down to perhaps 100 gallons.
Something that has to be stressed here is experience. There is no substitue for it, and while not a guarantee to success when two foes engage in it, in near equal equipment the odds do favor it. Another way to think about it is to look at the German high scoring Aces. They flew an airplane that had some pretty notable vices (Me-109 pattern work, flight control harmonization), over a period of years, and racked up serious scores along the way. They lived long enough to get good / experienced and then thrived / prospered. Yes a LOT of them didn't make it to the end, but, regardless of how good they were, the more times you go into the arena (especially outnumbered) the more opportunity you have to get nailed.
Cheers,
Biff
Few historic fights were even duels. The vast majority of planes (fighters?) shot down didn't see their attacker until they were already being fired on. Throw in the number that saw their attacker before being fired on but were in a position of disadvantage (lower altitude or speed or both) and the number of "equal" fights were very few indeed.
In some cases the attributes of the fighters in question allowed them to in a position of advantage (usually that means higher altitude) more often than their opponents.
The Japanese were quite good at "boom and zoom" even early in the war, dive down upon their prey from higher altitude, shoot it up and then climb back up to the higher attack altitude and repeat. This works rather well against planes that have little speed advantage (like Buffaloes or Hurricanes) over the Zero or Ki 43 as the Japanese fighters could balance their speed vs climb to keep the Buffs or Hurries from getting too far away as they climbed up. Doesn't work so well against P-40s/P-39s as both those planes could open up the horizontal distance more while the Japanese fighters were climbing for the repeat attack.
In reverse the Buff and Hurry can do the dive attack but then don't have either the climb or horizontal speed to separate long enough to get back to the attack altitude. P-40/P-39s had enough horizontal speed (aided by shallow dive?) to separate far enough to allow them to climb back up. Depending on the altitude of the engagement however the P-39/P-40 might not get back to attack altitude before the Japanese have done what they came to do and left. Like if they were escorting bombers at 20,000ft and above. While an early P-39 might be able to do 360mph at 20,000ft it took 5-6 minutes to climb from 20,000ft to 25,000ft and best climbing speed. Even the bombers can cover 15-20 miles in 5 minutes leaving a rather long stern chase for a second attack. At these higher altitudes the Japanese fighters might be able to climb 3 times faster than the Allison powered early American fighters.
Very few early war fighters had the ability to be 'energy' fighters regardless of country of origin which is why altitude at the start of the engagement was so important.
Again from Mike Williams site; http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spit109turn.gif
You will have to enlarge the image/page. there is a curved line on both charts that says "Angle of a straight climb"
At any combination of speed, turning radius/"G"s under the line the plane can climb, the further from the line the faster it can climb. At any combination above the line the plane has to descend to maintain speed. In the example given a Bf 109 doing 250mph at 12,000ft and pulling a 3 "G" turn HAS to descend at about 2,000fpm to maintain speed. Obviously changes in engine performance and/or altitude (not to mention weight) will affect were the line falls on the chart and the chart itself.
The chart may not be 100% accurate as it is calculated and not the result of test flights (or not many) but gives a good idea of what happened in dog fights and why they descended to sea/ground level if they lasted very long.