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Admiral Beez
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Ah, I'd filtered those out as OT. Whenever I see needless digressions or threadjacking I imagine Gold Five as he says, "Stay on target!" to Gold Leader in Star Wars: A New Hope.
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Ah, I'd filtered those out as OT. Whenever I see needless digressions or threadjacking I imagine Gold Five as he says, "Stay on target!" to Gold Leader in Star Wars: A New Hope.
I know I get a little detail orientated at times.
In this case the Zuiho was a converted submarine tender and was about the size of an Independence class carrier, except without any left over cruiser armor or the sub-division of the cruiser. As noted a number of time, US bombs were about 50% HE, British GP bombs were 27-31% with the 250lb being 27 and a 1000lb (if you could find one in early 1942) at 31%.
Near misses are iffy. Very close can spring hull plates and cause flooding. The US bombs were more likely to do this given the same distance from the hull or would do the same damage hitting further from the hull than a British bomb of the same weight.
US 1000lb bombs get very dangerous, their HE charge is in the same catagory as an 18" torpedo, a bit bigger than most 18" torpedoes. Trying to aim a little bit off to get a near miss on purpose was foolish.
Not all ships used the same thickness of hull plating (or even the same steel) and not all ships used the same framing or spacing.
Dive bombers were very useful during the early part of the war, things got more difficult as time went on. Using the Zuiho as an example again, at Santa Cruz she had eight 5in guns in four twin mounts. Japanese 5in AA guns fired about 2/3rds as fast as the US 5in (everybodies heavy AA fired slower than the US 5in) and she had eight 25mm guns in four twin mounts.
At some point in 1943 the 25mm count went to 48 guns and at some point in 1944 she got another 20 guns (total 68?) and 6 rocket launchers. The Japanese (French) 25mm was a really crappy gun for a number of reasons but diving on a ship that had 68 of them compared to 8?
British and Americans were adding light AA as fast as the factories could make the guns and mounts all during the war. Diving bombing a 1943 British or American ship could be a terrifying experience. And they didn't stop in 1943.
Unknown to the Allies the Japanese damage control sucked and their handling of gasoline fumes also sucked so their carriers were often lost to damage that was survivable by western carriers.
That's why I think this could have been the greatest day for the Skua and/or Chesapeake. You've got unprotected flattops with unarmored decks filled with aircraft, with crews and processes totally unprepared for damage control. Let's put FAA men in the Skuas, RAF in the Chesapeakes and go at em.None of that changes the fact that when you've got big flat wooden decks and lots of fuel and bombs, a single dive-bomber can ruin your day. Ask USS Franklin. 2 250-kg bombs nearly sank the ship, cost almost 800 dead, and most definitely not a Woolworth carrier.
That's why I think this could have been the greatest day for the Skua and/or Chesapeake. You've got unprotected flattops with unarmored decks filled with aircraft, with crews and processes totally unprepared for damage control. Let's put FAA men in the Skuas, RAF in the Chesapeakes and go at em.
I don't see that as useful for Ceylon. 1) the time for this modification program is probably going to see them late anyway, and 2) even if these modified-into-fighters could be delivered in time, how useful might they be? The Zero has all the cards -- turn, roll, climb, and perhaps top speed (?)
Even in their obsolescence they were dangerous airplanes. To be fair, the same could be said of other planes as well. I think the Stuka aged worst, the Val close behind but still useful into 1943. The pathetic fact is that this mishandled SB2C program meant that SBDs flew well into 1944 for the USN, and with the USMC for the duration. I loves me some Dauntlii. Kinda like the B-17, a leftover from an earlier era, but hung tough and still capable, in good hands.
I know virtually nothing about Wellington maritime operations except for reading about some Med operations. I'd love to hear more.
I think better aircraft would help. A6Ms could and did chew up better DBs in the right circumstances ... but more planes are better than fewer.
And Marines in the Wildcats!That's why I think this could have been the greatest day for the Skua and/or Chesapeake. You've got unprotected flattops with unarmored decks filled with aircraft, with crews and processes totally unprepared for damage control. Let's put FAA men in the Skuas, RAF in the Chesapeakes and go at em.
And Marines in the Wildcats!
Daylight bombing attack with slow bombers and no fighter escort just isn't going to work against IJN, in my opinion. Maybe fast bombers like Marylands could survive but they are nowhere near as accurate as a DB.
If you wanted like Skuas and Chesapeakes to hit IJN carriers with that fleet of them, they would need a huge fighter escort with at least competitive fighters. Unless maybe they managed to attack the CVL out on it's own or something.
And Marines in the Wildcats!
Or they'd have to have the numbers to distort and distend the CAP ... and still be willing to take heavy losses, a la Americans at Midway, where our fighter escorts were essentially ineffective due to small numbers and large miscommunications.
IJN has a range advantage for daylight fighters available to Allies in April 1942, so they can decide if they want to come within range of daylight Allied bombing strikes, but on the other hand if they want to wreck the airfields in Ceylon, or get at Royal Navy ships docked their or lurking nearby, they will have to fight their way through the RAF / FAA CAP and take losses accordingly if the latter is robust enough.
IJN attack aircraft had good range as well. I suspect there might be a sweet-spot where KdB could strike Ceylon without much danger from the single-engined Allied bombers. I doubt Nagumo/Genda et all crunched those numbers in this specific case.
D3Ys could, however, reach Guadalcanal from Rabaul (550 miles or so). Adjusting for Op C, with the uncertainty of carrier ops, hypothetically reduce that to 400 miles. Do the Allies have dive-bombers that can reach that far -- or fighters to escort them? I don't believe so.
Indeed. If there was on thing the Japanese should have acquired from their German allies it's radar tech. Imagine at Coral Sea and Midway (first tested and then perfected after this Ceylon raid) if Nagumo's carriers had air-intercept (air-warning) radar. By 1939, the Germans had installed surface-search and gunnery radars, not air-intercept onto the Scharnhorst class battleships, which could have been installed as an air-warning set in at least one IJN carrier (along with a CIC or FDO and working radios) by 1942. If Nagumo has radar, my Skuas and Chesapeakes, along with the Blenheims will not find those essential undefended skies that day.Good discussion so far, but we have to remember that the IJN carrier TFs had no AW radars in April 1942, or in May or June 1942 and consequently IJN CAP failed to intercept RAF/USN strike missions before the bombs were dropped on several occasions, including April 9 1942.
On April 9 1942 9 Blenheims bombed the KB, and four were shot down by CAP, near the carriers, for the loss of one Zero, but unluckily the Blenheims were intercepted a 2nd time by Zeros and Vals returning from the Hermes strike, and another Blenheim and a Zero were shot down. So the KB, with 5 carriers and ~20 Zeros aloft only managed to shoot down 4 Blenheims. If we add ~30 Fairey Battles to the Blenheim formation, it seems unlikely that RAF losses would increase much since the Battle has the same (IIRC) defensive armament as a Blenheim and similar top speed. Ditto for a squadron or two of Skuas, albeit slower than Blenheims.Oh, 100%, and I bet they did crunch the numbers, albeit probably with some partly flawed intel
No they do not. But they do have some level bombers that can probably reach. The problem is without fighters, with multiple IJN carriers out there, RAF or FAA bombers in the daytime are going to be hard pressed to survive, IMO.
D3Ys [sic; should be "D3A"] could, however, reach Guadalcanal from Rabaul (550 miles or so).