Dogfight: Me 262 vs. Meteor

[GrauGeist]

Hello,

Sorry but this is a wrong explanaition and claim.

The Jumo 004B was inferior to the Jumo 004A, because it was developed as a save alloy engine, able to be mass produced.

The Jumo 004A was from higher grade alloys, which were short at Germany during the war and the Jumo 004A was more reliable, more powerfull and had a longer service life then the Jumo 004B.

The 004A was heavier, had a shorter service life and suffered from harmonic vibration at certain RPM. The 004B produced slightly less thrust but was lighter than the 004A, had a longer service life and were modular so they could be changed on the aircraft quickly in the field.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

It might have finished the war against Japan but it didnt win it

"IF" the bomb and a way to deliver it was around 3 years earlier I think there's little doubt it "would have" finished AND won the war.

 

[Starfighter91]

The 004A was heavier, had a shorter service life and suffered from harmonic vibration at certain RPM. The 004B produced slightly less thrust but was lighter than the 004A, had a longer service life and were modular so they could be changed on the aircraft quickly in the field.

The Jumo 004B was 100kg lighter then the Jumo 004A.
All issues were sorted out at the Jumo 004A and to my german sources the Jumo 004A had a much longer service life, especially through the much better alloys at the turbine blades, your statement is after my sources wrong.
Also to my sources the harmonic vibration issue, was the problem of the Jumo 004B, which was the reason to reduce the RPM from 9000 to 8700 r/min

Power of the Jumo 004A was 9,8 KN
Power of the Jumo 004B was 8,7 KN

 

[fastmongrel]

"IF" the bomb and a way to deliver it was around 3 years earlier I think there's little doubt it "would have" finished AND won the war.

True but it would probably have taken more than 2 bombs to get the Japanese to surrender in 1942

 

[parsifal]

Meteors were not the equal to the F-86 in the air superiority role, as RAAF 77 sqn experiences in Korea clearly show. Moreover, the RAAF wantedthe F-86 in preference to the meteor when its P-51s were to be replaced, and indeed, the Avon Sabres rapidly replaced the Meteors on strength as soon as could be done. Meteors had a short operational life in the RAAF, whereas the Sabres flew for the RAAF for over 10 years, were placed in storage and then sold to the Malaysians who used them for another 10 years.

There was no doubt down here about which a/c was superior

 

[FLYBOYJ]

True but it would probably have taken more than 2 bombs to get the Japanese to surrender in 1942

You're right...

3

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Meteors were not the equal to the F-86 in the air superiority role, as RAAF 77 sqn experiences in Korea clearly show. Moreover, the RAAF wantedthe F-86 in preference to the meteor when its P-51s were to be replaced, and indeed, the Avon Sabres rapidly replaced the Meteors on strength as soon as could be done. Meteors had a short operational life in the RAAF, whereas the Sabres flew for the RAAF for over 10 years, were placed in storage and then sold to the Malaysians who used them for another 10 years.

There was no doubt down here about which a/c was superior

100% correct! And the Avon Sabers were probably the best ones built IMO!

 

[parsifal]

Thought this might be interesting. its the con flicting combat summaries as seen by the opposing Australian and Soviet Pilots of the Korean conflict. my apologies for drifting OT, but it goes to the releative strengths of the MIG on the one hand, and the Meteor on the other

"(Soviet) The Soviet command had learned about the presence of an unfamiliar machine in the air in the middle of August, 1951 when one of the pilots during an attack on a Sabre accidentally photographed a Meteor. Soon the intelligence department of the 64-th FAC received a message that the RAAF squadron of Meteors had arrived to Korea".

The Soviet and Australian battle reports looked differently. The first battle between the Meteors and the MIGs, which ended without results, took place on the 25 August 1951. (Soviet) "The Soviet pilots N.V.Sutiagin (ace of the Korean war, Hero of the Soviet Union) and G.I.Pulov, claimed two victories".

Four days after, on the 29 of August, about 11 o'clock in the morning eight Meteors were at a height of 10 km above Chonju when six MIGs appeared above them at a height of 12 km. The Meteors turned in order to keep the MIGs in sight, but at this moment a squadron commander Wilson noticed two more MIGs at a height of 9 km (the Soviet pilots used two level flight formation). Wilson dived for attack, the pilot Woodroff followed him, but quickly broke in a cockscrew dive. Both MIGs sharply dived, evading the attack. Wilson pressed the accelerator, trying to catch up with them, but at this moment his plane was shaken by a direct hit - an "invisible" MIG attacked him from the sun. It was a favorite tactics of the Soviet pilots!

(Soviet perspective) "Apparently, this attack was made by the pair the MIGs piloted by L.K.Shukin (on the photo at the left, later became Hero of the Soviet Union) and A.Astanovsky. They had just pulled out of attack on Sabres at a greater height, and, having noticed Meteors, immediately threw the machines on them. Inspired by the successful attack, Shukin steeply climbed up and tried to repeat it, but, having passed through a layer of clouds, lost the opponent from sight. He claimed a victory, but… "

Wilson was wounded, but managed to keep control over his plane and get rid of the pursuer. Other two pilots - Cedrik Thomas and Kenneth Blight hurried to the aid of the commander, and several MIGs dived away after an unsuccessful attempt to get on tail of the Blight's aircraft. Wilson managed to make it to the base on his severely damaged plane. Later such a big hole was found on one of the wings, that a man might freely have crawled through it... In the meantime the MIGs piloted by pilots N.V.Babonin and A.A.Svintitskiy succeeded in a dog fight against the other four Meteors led by Jeffrey Thornton. Thornton had noticed the MIGs attacking from the sun, and ordered to his comrades on the radio to evade. However, when the four dropped the MIGs off their tails, one of Meteors had disappeared. It was the machine of the pilot Ron Guthrie. His Meteor was badly shot, Guthrie ejected and was taken prisoner by the North Koreans (on a photo to the right - R. Guthrie in a Chinese POW camp).

(Soviet Comment)"The victory was added to the Babonin's account. He managed to set ablaze one of the engines of the Guthrie's Meteor from a distance of 400-500 m, but the aircraft kept flying. Then Babonin came closer and, having shot a burst at the enemy fighter from 100-200m, saw the pilot ejecting from the disintegrating plane".

One week after (5th of September) the Meteors again engaged with MIGs. Six Meteors carried out an air reconnaissance next to the Chinese border along with two American F-80-Shooting Stars. In midday the commander of the Meteors Victor Kennon noticed a group of MIGs flying eastwards and obviously preparing for an attack. British pilot Joe Blyth, serving in RAAF, saw MIGS diving on planes flown by the pilots Dawson and Michelson. He tried to warn the comrades on the radio, but it was too late - six MIGs, pair after pair, got on the tail of the Meteors. Dawson was lucky to escape any hits, but the Michelson's plane was strongly damaged, turned over and broke into an uncontrolled plunge. At a height of 3 km Michelson managed to regain control over the machine and broadcasted: "I am still flying… flying to the base". He barely chanced to make it home. His plane was extremely strongly damaged - holes were found literally everywhere – in wings, fuselage, the main fuel tank …

The Soviet version of this battle, in which a Hero of Soviet Union of G.U.Ohay took part, (on the photo at the left), looks differently. Only eight machines out of twenty four MIGs of the battle group led by Ohay, participated in this attack. Ohay himself claimed two Meteors, the pilot Tiuliaev one more.

and so on....

Vladimir Kroupnik. Meteors vs MIGs

 

[parsifal]

That's not to say that a combat between the me262 and say the meteor F4 would go to the same script. The f4 was closer in performance to the f8 than the 262 was to the Mig-15. It would have been a lot closer and in the end, would have been more than anything a product of sheer dumb luck I think.....

 

[GrauGeist]

At the onset, the Meteor pilots were training and chasing "doodlebugs", the Me262 pilots were training at the front in combat situations. So the Me262 pilots had a head-start on the RAF pilots in that regard.

And unlike the Bf109s or Fw190s, all Me262 pilots were seasoned, so an encounter with a P-80 or a Meteor would pit the Allied pilot against a skilled adversary with a repertoire of tactics.

 

[Zyzygie]

At the onset, the Meteor pilots were training and chasing "doodlebugs", the Me262 pilots were training at the front in combat situations. So the Me262 pilots had a head-start on the RAF pilots in that regard.

And unlike the Bf109s or Fw190s, all Me262 pilots were seasoned, so an encounter with a P-80 or a Meteor would pit the Allied pilot against a skilled adversary with a repertoire of tactics.

As I understand it, the German Me 262 pilots were specially selected "Top Guns."

That would arguably account for the difference between what they were able to achieve in combat hours between engine overhauls and those achieved by "Watson's Whizzers." Also the need for survival in combat would necessarily impose an absolutely iron-clad discipline in terms of their treatment of their machines.

 

[Zyzygie]

That having been said, squadron 616 had plenty of combat experience:

 

[Zyzygie]

Wilson was wounded, but managed to keep control over his plane and get rid of the pursuer. Other two pilots - Cedrik Thomas and Kenneth Blight hurried to the aid of the commander, and several MIGs dived away after an unsuccessful attempt to get on tail of the Blight's aircraft. Wilson managed to make it to the base on his severely damaged plane. Later such a big hole was found on one of the wings, that a man might freely have crawled through it... In the meantime the MIGs piloted by pilots N.V.Babonin and A.A.Svintitskiy succeeded in a dog fight against the other four Meteors led by Jeffrey Thornton. Thornton had noticed the MIGs attacking from the sun, and ordered to his comrades on the radio to evade. However, when the four dropped the MIGs off their tails, one of Meteors had disappeared. It was the machine of the pilot Ron Guthrie. His Meteor was badly shot, Guthrie ejected and was taken prisoner by the North Koreans (on a photo to the right - R. Guthrie in a Chinese POW camp).

(Soviet Comment)"The victory was added to the Babonin's account. He managed to set ablaze one of the engines of the Guthrie's Meteor from a distance of 400-500 m, but the aircraft kept flying. Then Babonin came closer and, having shot a burst at the enemy fighter from 100-200m, saw the pilot ejecting from the disintegrating plane".



and so on....

Vladimir Kroupnik. Meteors vs MIGs

Guthrie was taken prisoner and was told by his Soviet interrogators that he had destroyed a MiG 15.

 

[Zyzygie]

Wilson was wounded, but managed to keep control over his plane and get rid of the pursuer. Other two pilots - Cedrik Thomas and Kenneth Blight hurried to the aid of the commander, and several MIGs dived away after an unsuccessful attempt to get on tail of the Blight's aircraft. Wilson managed to make it to the base on his severely damaged plane. Later such a big hole was found on one of the wings, that a man might freely have crawled through it... In the meantime the MIGs piloted by pilots N.V.Babonin and A.A.Svintitskiy succeeded in a dog fight against the other four Meteors led by Jeffrey Thornton. Thornton had noticed the MIGs attacking from the sun, and ordered to his comrades on the radio to evade. However, when the four dropped the MIGs off their tails, one of Meteors had disappeared. It was the machine of the pilot Ron Guthrie. His Meteor was badly shot, Guthrie ejected and was taken prisoner by the North Koreans (on a photo to the right - R. Guthrie in a Chinese POW camp).

(Soviet Comment)"The victory was added to the Babonin's account. He managed to set ablaze one of the engines of the Guthrie's Meteor from a distance of 400-500 m, but the aircraft kept flying. Then Babonin came closer and, having shot a burst at the enemy fighter from 100-200m, saw the pilot ejecting from the disintegrating plane".



and so on....

Vladimir Kroupnik. Meteors vs MIGs

Guthrie was taken prisoner and was told by his Soviet interrogators that he had destroyed a MiG 15.

View attachment 306839

I don't think they meant to say that his aircraft made it back to base and land on it's own.

That was another one...

 

[parsifal]

As I understand it, the German Me 262 pilots were specially selected "Top Guns."

That would arguably account for the difference between what they were able to achieve in combat hours between engine overhauls and those achieved by "Watson's Whizzers." Also the need for survival in combat would necessarily impose an absolutely iron-clad discipline in terms of their treatment of their machines.

very true, but this was a mistake according to some sources, forced upon the Germans by their overwhelming fuel crisis. by concentrating all their remaining experienced aircrew into one unit, they were all jockeying in the air and on the ground for prime position. Wingmen, second fiddles in an air group are still important. Statistically about 90% of the kills by a unit are done by about 10% of the pilots. everybody else are targets for the enemy and padding to protect the really dangerous guys. Making a unit 100% experten, does not give you a 10 fold increase in killing efficiency, but every time you lose one of the pilots its an irreplaceable loss essentially.

Moreover, if the Germans had somehow been able to field anything like a decent number of 262s in the air (something that would have been necessary if the chances of an encounter with Meteor guys was made statistically relevant) that qualitative edge would have disappeared really quickly. in 1945 there weren't that many really good pilots left in the LW. the average allied pilot ini 1945 was far more proficient and survivable than the average German pilot, who might be lucky to have 10 hours training consisting of a few tow hops in gliders if he was lucky, compared to about 350 hours for the average allied pilot. What was still rare in the allied camp, even in 1945, was that rare ability to shoot down large numbers of enemy a/c.

 

[fastmongrel]

Were the early Meteor pilots specially selected or just drawn from the pool of available pilots like a normal Squadron.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Were the early Meteor pilots specially selected or just drawn from the pool of available pilots like a normal Squadron.

616 squadron was the first Meteor squadron, I can't find anything to show why they were chosen over other units. Early Me 262 units were test squadrons although they flew operational sorties with the 262. I believe the first actual "JG" squadron to operate the me 262 in a pure fighter capacity was JG 7.

 

[Milosh]

the average German pilot, who might be lucky to have 10 hours training consisting of a few tow hops in gliders if he was lucky, compared to about 350 hours for the average allied pilot. What was still rare in the allied camp, even in 1945, was that rare ability to shoot down large numbers of enemy a/c.

Shouldn't that be 10hrs in type because if it is only 10hrs of flight training that would make them exceptional to get their wings with only that many hours of stick time.

 

[Milosh]

JG 7
Jagdgeschwader 7

 

[stona]

As I understand it, the German Me 262 pilots were specially selected "Top Guns."

Not so. Most came from other multi-engine units, many 'zerstorer' pilots (particularly initial intakes) and later bomber pilots. These men were not only familiar with multi engine aircraft but most held instrument qualifications which were unusual to the point of almost being extinct among late war single engine fighter pilots. Bad weather grounded the Jagdwaffe. There is a clue in the designation of many Me 262 units!

People tend to remember the famous pilots of JG 7 and JV 44, though even there it was by no means all who were 'experten', and imagine all Me 262 units to have been similarly constituted. Many of JG 7s pilots had converted from multi engine types.

In the second half of 1944 the average Luftwaffe single engine fighter pilot still had a total flying time on all types of about 120-130 hours and maybe 10 hours on operational types. What he never got was the on the job training that his allied counterparts got at OTUs and their equivalents. A typical US pilot had a total of around 400 hours, 150 on operational types, before he was posted to a unit where his training would continue. It's a huge and relevant difference.
If you analyse the careers of the Germans shot down during operation Bodenplatte you will find that many had been with their units since October/November 1944 but when shot down on 1st January 1945 had less than five, often one or two, operational missions.

Cheers

Steve