Dogfight: Me 262 vs. Meteor

[Zyzygie]

Not so. Most came from other multi-engine units, many 'zerstorer' pilots (particularly initial intakes) and later bomber pilots. These men were not only familiar with multi engine aircraft but most held instrument qualifications which were unusual to the point of almost being extinct among late war single engine fighter pilots. Bad weather grounded the Jagdwaffe. There is a clue in the designation of many Me 262 units!

People tend to remember the famous pilots of JG 7 and JV 44, though even there it was by no means all who were 'experten', and imagine all Me 262 units to have been similarly constituted. Many of JG 7s pilots had converted from multi engine types.

In the second half of 1944 the average Luftwaffe single engine fighter pilot still had a total flying time on all types of about 120-130 hours and maybe 10 hours on operational types. What he never got was the on the job training that his allied counterparts got at OTUs and their equivalents. A typical US pilot had a total of around 400 hours, 150 on operational types, before he was posted to a unit where his training would continue. It's a huge and relevant difference.
If you analyse the careers of the Germans shot down during operation Bodenplatte you will find that many had been with their units since October/November 1944 but when shot down on 1st January 1945 had less than five, often one or two, operational missions.

Cheers

Steve

The squadron was formed by Lieutenant General Galland in January 1945. [It was] also known as the "squadron of experts", consisted mainly of volunteers from all Luftwaffe [fighter pilots]. Among them were especially many highly decorated pilots aces, such as
-Gerhard Barkhorn 301 victories
-Herbert Kaiser 68
-Gunther Lützow 110
-Johannes Steinhoff 176
-Heinz Bar 220
-Walter Krupinski. 197
-Walter Roell veteran stuka pilot
-Adolf Galland 104
-Hans-Ekkehard Bob 60
Within the Luftwaffe [it] was jokingly asserted that in this organization the Knights Cross was an essential part of the service uniform.

As they typically managed to get only around 20 to 50 Me 262s into action per day, even if they were not all aces, the aces certainly formed the core of the squadron.

 

[Milosh]

JV44 didn't receive its first Me262 til March 14 1945 and flew its first mission, with 3 a/c, before the end of the month.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

JV-44 operational record from Wiki;

By 14 March 1945 JV 44 had taken delivery of its first Me 262. JV 44's improvised training programme continued into late March. A Kette of 3 Me 262s led by Oberst Steinhoff mounted the first combat mission by JV 44 in late March, Steinoff claiming a Soviet Il-2 shot down.

General der Flieger Koller issued orders for JV44 to relocate to southern Germany in order to operate in the defence of the aircraft manufacturing plants and fuel and ammunition storage facilities in the area. Thus the unit was on the move constantly as the Allied ground forces advanced, including short stays at Munich-Riem, Salzburg-Maxglan, Ainring (Platzschutz) and Innsbruck, also allegedly using converted Reichsautobahn roadbeds serving as improvised highway strips in early 1945, eventually surrendering at the end of the war. Nearly all the aircraft were destroyed, including some deliberately blown up as Allied troops advanced. A number of aircraft however survived the war and were tested extensively by the United States.

Surviving records suggest the unit shot down approximately 47 Allied aircraft during April/May 1945. Oberstleutnant Heinz Bär was the unit top claimant with 16 kills, while Hauptmann Georg-Peter Eder claimed at least 12. Galland himself claimed 7 kills before being wounded in action.

On 26 April 1945 Adolf Galland was shot down and was wounded in the knee. Temporary command of the unit was then given to Bär. Whilst in hospital Galland devised a plan to prevent the JV 44 pilots and aircraft from falling into Russian hands or being accidentally destroyed by approaching Allied ground troops. He discharged himself from hospital and set up his headquarters in Tegernsee. Still in contact with Heinz Bär he obtained an Fi 156 "Storch" liaison plane.

On May 1 Galland drafted a note to forward to General Eisenhower requesting a special surrender be granted to JV 44. Two aides, Maj. Wilhelm Herget and Capt. Hugo Kessler, flew the Fi 156 across the lines, landing at Schleißheim. The two aides were interviewed regarding the possibility of this surrender. They returned to Galland with instructions on how the surrender would proceed, including handing over the remaining Me 262 aircraft into American hands. The significance of this is that the SS, if they had known of this offer by Galland, might have destroyed the aircraft and executed the associated personnel. Though the aides returned to Galland and he prepared a response, as the Fi 156 Storch returned over the American lines the aircraft was shot down by an American armored column near Schleißheim. Though Herget survived the crash Galland's response did not get to the Americans.

American troops advanced on the JV 44 base near Salzburg and shortly before surrendering, the remaining Me 262's were blown up by JV 44 personnel, grenades being inserted into the engine intakes. Some of the JV 44 Me 262s were earlier flown out to Innsbruck where they met JV 44 personnel under command of Oberst Hans Ekkehard Bob, who was ordered to prepare the Innsbruck airfield for operations.

 

[stona]

JV 44 was an exception, however it amounted to a unit equivalent to a single Staffel. It's first operational flights were in late March 1945 about 6 weeks before the end of the war. On 18th March Kannhuber ordered JV 44 to become operational as quickly as possible with a nominal strength of 20 Me 262s. On 31st March records show that only 9 Me 262s had in fact been delivered.

On 25th March a Mosquito (MM285 of 544 Squadron) may have been JV 44s first victim. It was shot down by an Me 262 near Peenemunde which may have been an aircraft of JV 44 based at Briest, where JV 44s conversion program was running. The first JV 44 combat loss a quick scan of a spread sheet reveals is Lt. Fahrmann, shot down by fighters on 8th April, baling out unhurt.

The claims above are 'optimistic' if one tries to tally them against allied losses. I have slightly different figures, 56 claims, 31 of which can be confirmed, which tallies well with a typical over claim rate of 30%-40%. There's no point in arguing the differences, whichever figures we accept confirm, unsurprisingly, given the exceptional personnel (though even JV 44 had some ex 'Stuka' and 'Zerstorer' pilots) the unit did enjoy some success.

I'd love to see the evidence for the claim that JV 44 got "20-50" Me 262s into action per day. At the beginning of April the unit only had 9 aircraft in total, some of them would certainly have been unserviceable. Most days they didn't fly and they never had as many as 20 serviceable Me 262s, never mind 50!
Also, if you bother to check surviving records, you will discover that a grand total of about 48 pilots flew with JV 44 (I say 'about' because some are uncertain, it may be one or two less) throughout its brief existence. According to accounts from Galland and others, JV 44 put up an average of about 5 or 6 jets on a good day. JG 7, an entire 'Geschwader' composed nominally of a Stab flight and 4 Gruppen, struggled to get 30-40 Me 262s into the air on any given day.

The vast majority of Me 262 pilots were not hand picked 'experten' as I explained above.

Cheers

Steve

 

[stona]

To add to this. Even in JV 44, which undoubtedly did have many 'experten' in its ranks, not all pilots were aces. I make 14 or 15 of the total to have come to the unit with less than 5 victories, that's nearly 1 in 3.

Some with few victories did well. Lt. Fahrmann, mentioned earlier, came to the unit with 2 victories but went on to score 2 more with the Me 262.

On the other hand Maj. Diethelm v. Eickel-Streiber came with 91 victories but did not increase his tally on the Me 262.

Cheers

Steve

 

[parsifal]

what units flew the Me 262, from what locations and from what starting dates?

Maybe this figure of 20-50 relates to the total numbers of 262s that could airborne on a given day. That seems more plausible.....

Even if the pilots arent specialist fighter pilots, if they were experienced, thats going to give them an edge of some description I would think?

 

[stona]

20-30+ was about what JG7 could get up on a good day. With other units it would have been possible to have 50 Me 262s in the air on a given day, but unusual.

I could give a list of all the units that operated the Me 262 but it is complicated by the way ad hoc names were given to some formations. For example, most will have heard of 'Kommando Schenk', but this was just a detached Staffel of KG(J)51 operating against the allied beach heads. This Staffel (3./KG(J)51) rejoined I./KG(J)51 in early September and was again absorbed by its parent formation.

Instead here's a list of all the units that made air to air claims whilst flying the Me 262:

Stab and III./JG7 427
I. and II./JG7 ~80
IV.(E)/JG7 ~30
III./EJG2 ~25
JV44 56
Ekdo Novotny 35
10./NJG11 ~50
I./KG(J)51 ~5
I./KG(J)54 ~50
Ekdo 262 ~25
Ekdo Lechfeld 3?

Allowing for the normal, honest, over claiming and even dishonesty (there's at least one pilot's claims in there which must fall into the latter category) it's still a lot of allied aircraft destroyed.
Many victories were scored by units that were supposedly training units (Ekdo - Erprobungskommando) or 'training' units within other formations, like EJG2 (Erganzungs-Jagdgeschwader 2) but these units were operational in all normal meanings of the term.

Many bomber pilots were converted to fighters late in the war and some of these men went to Me 262 units. They were usually fairly experienced and would certainly have been able to fly the aircraft competently, but they had very little fighter training. If I had to guess I would say this made them capable of survival but not always capable of shooting down enemy aircraft unless an ideal opportunity presented itself, much like a good proportion of all fighter pilots

Cheers

Steve

 

[Milosh]

what units flew the Me 262, from what locations and from what starting dates?

See Me262 Vol 4 pg 744 for the last OoB

 

[stona]

See Me262 Vol 4 pg 744 for the last OoB

Volume 4! It's as rare as rocking horse poo. Incredibly I 'lent' mine to someone years ago, when it was still available at a reasonable price, and never saw it again. If SWMBO wins the lottery I'll replace it.

Cheers

Steve

 

[Milosh]

Volume 4! It's as rare as rocking horse poo. Incredibly I 'lent' mine to someone years ago, when it was still available at a reasonable price, and never saw it again. If SWMBO wins the lottery I'll replace it.

Cheers

Steve

Just took a look > ~$300 for V4. V2 for ~$60.

 

[parsifal]

Well I wont be running out to buy it in a hurry.....

 

[Zyzygie]

 

[Zyzygie]

The commander of Far Eastern Air Forces, Lt Gen O.P. 'Opie' Weyland, expressed his views in correspondence:
"We feel no particular concern about operating the F-80 and F-84 in the areas of MiG activity although they are no match in speed with the MiG and definitely cannot engage in air combat on even terms. By the same token the Meteor is also no match for the MiG in speed, but it does have a number of characteristics which could be used to advantage in combat with the MiGs. These are its good rate of turn, its excellent climb and excellent armament. I frankly do not feel that these good characteristics were fully developed in the very limited engagements with MiG-15s. In any event I do not think that the airplane should in any way be damned because of its performance in the Korean theatre. It is a short-legged airplane built for air defence purposes and I believe it is a good one for this purpose."

Peter Caygill, Meteor from the Cockpit: Britain's First Jet Fighter, Casemate Publishers.

 

[stona]

If the TBO for the Welland engine was 180 hours in mid 1944 there really is no comparison with the Jumo engine of the same date. I'm just trying to imagine how many engines the Germans would have needed available to operate the hundreds of Me 262s so popular in many 'what ifs'
Cheers
Steve

 

[Aozora]

Just took a look > ~$300 for V4. V2 for ~$60.

Hey Milosh, can I borrow your Volume 4 (and Volume 1)?

 

[Milosh]

Hey Milosh, can I borrow your Volume 4 (and Volume 1)?

Sorry, I might end up like stona.

 

[fastmongrel]

I have the same view about lending books as I do about lending my tools. If you can pry them out of my left hand while I hit you with a Cricket bat with my right hand and then if you do get the tool/book off me you had better be pretty good at dodging my car when I chase you.

 

[gjs238]

I have the same view about lending books as I do about lending my tools. If you can pry them out of my left hand while I hit you with a Cricket bat with my right hand and then if you do get the tool/book off me you had better be pretty good at dodging my car when I chase you.

I thought in the EU you shared everything...

 

[fastmongrel]

I thought in the EU you shared everything...

No the rest of Europe gets to share the money and in Britain we get to pay for it

 

[Starfighter91]

I think there is an other country in europe which pays for everything, inclusive for Britain!