Dogfight: Me 262 vs. Meteor

Starfighter91 said:

I think there is a other country in europe which pay for everythink, inclusive for Britain!

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You have to calculate net contribution. The UK is usually makes the fourth largest contribution to the EU budget, but because it takes less out than some other countries it is the second largest net donor. The UK's net contribution is typically around 10-11 billion Euros, compared with 16-17 billion Euros from Germany.
Cheers
Steve

stona said:

You have to calculate net contribution. The UK is usually makes the fourth largest contribution to the EU budget, but because it takes less out than some other countries it is the second largest net donor. The UK's net contribution is typically around 10-11 billion Euros, compared with 16-17 billion Euros from Germany.
Cheers
Steve

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If it wasnt for the various special refunds that have been negotiated over the years and having to give up around 2 Billion Euros of annual fishing rights in British waters Britain would be paying around 17 Billion Euros. Since 1973 Britain has paid in more money than France roughly the same as Germany yet received less back than the Netherlands.

But the Netherlands is still a major net contributor! Given it's relatively small size and population it is the largest donor in some calculations. There are so many different ways of calculating who gives what and who receives what that this is not an easy 2+2=4 kind of sum
Cheers
Steve

Perhaps I'm not able to read the right numbers, but I have googled the numbers for 2010, 2012 and 2014 for the saldo (paying and receiving)

2010:

Germany: -11,947 billion Euro
Britain: - 7,913 billion Euro
France: - 6,476 billion Euro
Italy: - 5,835 billion Euro
Netherland: - 3,447 billion Euro

2012:

Germany: -11,95 billion Euro
France: - 8,3 billion Euro
Britain: - 7,37 billion Euro
Italy: - 5,06 billion Euro
Netherland: - 2,36 billion Euro

2014:

Germany: -15,5 billion Euro
France: - 7,16 billion Euro
Britain: - 4,93 billion Euro
Netherland: - 4,71 billion Euro
Italy: - 4,47 billion Euro


That's the official numbers from the EU for the Saldo of paying and receiving, all other claims are for me propaganda and Britain pays much less compare to 2010 and 2012 and less then one third of Germany at 2014.

Gents, fun stuff but let's get this thread on track before it becomes political.

A bit more on topic:
Some interesting notes re the transfer of technology from the West to the Soviet Union after WWII:






Sutton Western Technology and Soviet Economic Development to 1965 - Documents

"The VK-1 was used to power the MiG-15 It had a thrust of 6,000 pounds. Essentially, it was an improved version of the British-built Rolls-Royce "Nene" engine, incorporating enlarged combustion chambers, turbine blades, and tailpipe for handling a greater flow of intake air."

"Klimov VK-1 was the first Soviet jet engine to see significant production. It was developed by Vladimir Yakovlevich Klimov and first produced by the GAZ 116 works. It was derived from the British Rolls-Royce Nene plans for which were sold to the USSR by the British as a goodwill gesture in what has been widely regarded as a bad move by Western military powers.
Immediately after World War II, the Soviet Union had been working with obsolete designs based on captured German technology and the resulting engines were of poor quality. However in 1946, before the Cold War had really begun, the new British Labour government under the Prime Minister, Clement Attlee, keen to improve diplomatic relations with the Soviet Union, authorized Rolls-Royce to export 40 Rolls-Royce Nene centrifugal flow turbojet engines. In 1958 it was discovered during a visit to Beijing by Whitney Straight, then deputy chairman of Rolls-Royce, that this engine had been copied without license to power the MiG-15, first as the Klimov RD-45, and after initial problems of metallurgy forced the Soviet engineers to develop a better copy, the engine had then entered production as the Klimov VK-1 (Rolls-Royce later attempted to claim £207m in license fees, without success)."

"The initial RD-45 proved troublesome due to Soviet inexperience with engineering and materials, but was further improved to produce the VK-1 which differed from the Nene in having larger combustion chambers, larger turbine, and revised airflow through the engine. The VK-1F added the afterburner."

"The VK-1 was used to power MiG-15 and MiG-17 fighters, as well as the Il-28 bomber."

"The engine featured a centrifugal compressor unlike more progressive axial flow compressor engines, which required aircraft housing it to be thicker than aircraft featuring axial flow compressors."

The MiG-15* "Fagot"

The metallurgy of Nimonic was advanced. Even though the Soviets were well under way with development of the A bomb at this stage (they exploded their first in 1949), in terms of jet engines they had to resort to reverse engineering the Nenes they obtained from Britain.

I think it needs to be pointed out that the German's technology was advanced in the earlier stages of the war, and was able to maintain a certain development edge even until the final days of the war...however, they did not have the materials, resources or seclusion to continue necessary development unlike the British or the U.S. to hold a technological lead.

So yes, by war's end, the German technology (or equipment) can be seen as "inferior": their laboratories and manufacturing facilities were being bombed into dust, their supply lines and resources were non-existent. They had no pilots, they had no rubber or fuel and virtually no infrastructure by 1945.

I think everyone knows the Germans were technically quite good. What they lacked in large measure was a leader / government with good sense. Hitler had vision, but no sense at economics or military science. As an enlisted man, he never studied military theory and was ignorant of many basic pieces of knowledge to run a war, let alone a military service.

He had good generals. Too bad for Germany he wouldn't listen to them. It certainly worked in the Allies favor, though.

GregP said:

I think everyone knows the Germans were technically quite good. What they lacked in large measure was a leader / government with good sense. Hitler had vision, but no sense at economics or military science. As an enlisted man, he never studied military theory and was ignorant of many basic pieces of knowledge to run a war, let alone a military service.

He had good generals. Too bad for Germany he wouldn't listen to them. It certainly worked in the Allies favor, though.

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I've heard that Britain thought of assassinating Hitler, but eventually decided that he was so counterproductive to Germany that it was better to leave him in place:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Foxley

The Rolls Royce engines were not sold to the USSR as a gesture of good will. The ensuing questions in parliament make it quite clear that they were sold on a commercial basis and that to quote G.R. Strauss (Minister of Supply) in a parliamentary reply, "none of these engines was on the secret list".
Strauss confirmed the sale of 55 jet engines to the USSR during 1947 and whilst he refused to rule out the possibility of more sales he said that there were no plans to sell anymore at the time (November 1948 ).

The UK was seeking to develop European markets for its jet technology as the Americans were set on developing their own. Later US paranoia about jet technology falling into the wrong hands, presumably communist hands, makes for some farcical reading around the de Havilland Comet story

Cheers

Steve

stona said:

Later US paranoia about jet technology falling into the wrong hands, presumably communist hands, makes for some farcical reading around the de Havilland Comet story

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But I guess after £207m in lost licensing fees to the Soviets, some of that paranoia was well justified

Zyzygie said:

"Klimov VK-1 was the first Soviet jet engine to see significant production. It was developed by Vladimir Yakovlevich Klimov and first produced by the GAZ 116 works. It was derived from the British Rolls-Royce Nene plans for which were sold to the USSR by the British as a goodwill gesture in what has been widely regarded as a bad move by Western military powers.
Immediately after World War II, the Soviet Union had been working with obsolete designs based on captured German technology and the resulting engines were of poor quality. However in 1946, before the Cold War had really begun, the new British Labour government under the Prime Minister, Clement Attlee, keen to improve diplomatic relations with the Soviet Union, authorized Rolls-Royce to export 40 Rolls-Royce Nene centrifugal flow turbojet engines. In 1958 it was discovered during a visit to Beijing by Whitney Straight, then deputy chairman of Rolls-Royce, that this engine had been copied without license to power the MiG-15, first as the Klimov RD-45, and after initial problems of metallurgy forced the Soviet engineers to develop a better copy, the engine had then entered production as the Klimov VK-1 (Rolls-Royce later attempted to claim £207m in license fees, without success).

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I've worked on MiG-15UTIs and T-33s, also seen a RR Nene. If you put the 3 engines side by side they are almost identical, and that's to include the location of external accessories and routing of electrical wiring, fuel and pneumatic lines.

FLYBOYJ said:

But I guess after £207m in lost licensing fees to the Soviets, some of that paranoia was well justified

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The level of the British Labour party's stupidity towards Russia was staggering, I can remember politicians talking up the Soviet system in the sixties even after they had been there.

Strauss was as eminent politician with a long and successful career. He was the son of a conservative MP. He would later write that it was discrimination suffered at one of Britain's top public schools (which means private schools to US readers) that pushed him towards socialism and the labour party. Strauss suffered this discrimination as a Jew, it didn't just happen in Germany in the early 20th century.

In the immediate post war period Britain needed to generate income and exporting her jet technology was one way of doing it. When the deals were done in 1946/7 the politicians of the day did not have the hindsight that we have today. The cold war was just 'heating' up. They were not stupid, they just weren't clairvoyant.

Cheers

Steve

GrauGeist said:

I think it needs to be pointed out that the German's technology was advanced in the earlier stages of the war, and was able to maintain a certain development edge even until the final days of the war...however, they did not have the materials, resources or seclusion to continue necessary development unlike the British or the U.S. to hold a technological lead.

So yes, by war's end, the German technology (or equipment) can be seen as "inferior": their laboratories and manufacturing facilities were being bombed into dust, their supply lines and resources were non-existent. They had no pilots, they had no rubber or fuel and virtually no infrastructure by 1945.

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GERMAN RESISTANCE

"…Approximately 77,000 German citizens were killed for one or another form of resistance by Special Courts, courts-martial, People's Court and the civil justice system. Many of these Germans had served in government, the military, or in civil positions, which enabled them to engage in subversion and conspiracy; in addition the Canadian historian Peter Hoffman counts unspecified "tens of thousands" in concentration camps who were either suspected or actually engaged in opposition…"

This was arguably just the tip of the iceberg. I believe that German engineers and scientists probably worked willingly for Hitler initially, but later deliberately sabotaged the Nazi war effort. My supporting evidence for this is:
- the failure of the He 177 strategic heavy bomber due to designing it for dive bombing and with siamesed engines which were notoriously unreliable. It was totally predictable that they would have all sorts of harmonic vibration problems, and did.
- the failure of the V2 as a cost effective counter to the Allied strategic bombers. See below.
- the failure to develop a good creep-resistant alloy for fighter jet engine use, and to ensure that the Me 262 was given priority over tanks and U-boats from the nickel supply viewpoint
- Messerschmitt's acceptance of Hitler's use of the Me 262 as a "blitz bomber," when he knew much better. Galland was appalled.

In terms of the V2:
"… those of us who were seriously engaged in the war were very grateful to Werner von Braun. We knew that each V-2 cost as much to produce as a high-performance fighter airplane. We knew that German forces on the fighting fronts were in desperate need of airplanes, and that the V-2 rockets were doing us no military damage. From our point of view, the V-2 program was almost as good as if Hitler had adopted a policy of unilateral disarmament."
(Freeman Dyson

The German V-weapons (V-1 and V-2) cost the equivalent of around USD $40 billion (2015 dollars), which was 50 per cent more than the *Manhattan Project*that produced the atomic bomb.*

"6,048 V-2s were built, at a cost of approximately 100,000*Reichsmarks*(GB£2,370,000 (2011)) each; 3,225 were launched. SS General*Hans Kammler, who as an*engineer*had constructed several*concentration camps*including*Auschwitz, had a reputation for brutality and had originated the idea of using concentration camp prisoners as*slave*labourers in the rocket program."

There was no way that the V2 could begin to compare with the Atom bomb in terms of winning the war. It just served to make the British angry.

More people died manufacturing the V-2 than were killed by its deployment.

Sorry but i have never read so much bullshit in my entire life !

Do you really believe they designed the He 177 the way they did as a sabotage method.

Messerschmitt agreed the 262 could be used as a bomber to help shorten the war ?
rather than saying yes so his design would be accepted over rival designs !

Your last line should read more like forced labourers, concentration camp inmates died because they were being worked to death in horrific conditions building the V2 than it killed in its deployment.

According to Messerschmitt himself in, a reply to Goering on 2nd November 1943, the Me 262 had always been designed with the possibility of fitting bomb racks. This is hardly surprising, given that both the Bf 109 and Bf 110 could be thus equipped and the Me 410 had an internal bomb bay (as a planned version of the Me 262 would have had). Goering asked the question because Hitler had made it clear that he saw a role for the Me 262 as a fast bomber. Maybe he was intentionally sabotaging his own war effort
There is even a picture taken of this happy occasion as Milch, Luchts and Goering met Messerschmitt to review repairs at the Regensburg plant following allied bombing.



On 26th November, during a demonstration of new German aircraft, Messerschmitt told Hitler directly that the Me 262 could carry a 1000Kg bomb load. The idea that this was an effort to sabotage the Nazi war effort (by Messerschmitt, take a look at the company finances) is ridiculous. It was an effort to get his aircraft built and to make money for the company. Business doesn't stop just because there is a war on.

The Me 262 and it's engines had the highest priority ranking available to any weapons programme. This priority category was code named Vulkan. It gave the Me 262 presedence over ALL other RLM/Luftwaffe projects and Milch sought to extend this across the entire armaments industry. On 10th December 1942 Milch, as State Secretary for Aviation and Generalluftzeugmeister issued the following order.

"The absolute demand for qualitative superiority of Luftwaffe equipment, over that of enemy countries, has led me to order the creation of an urgent development and production programme uner the code word Vulkan.
Tasks proceeding under this code word have absolute overriding priority within the Luftwaffe.
The programme includes jet propelled aircraft and guided missiles, including associated equipment and the ground organisation necessary to support these activities.
A request has been made to the Reichminster for Armaments and Munitions to extend the legal force of the code word Vulkan throughout the entire armaments field. Development of some of the following equipment is already taking place under priority DE. Through the code word Vulkan priority will also apply to the procurement of this equipment, for which extensive preparations will have to be made as before."

So Vulkan trumped the previous priority DE, which was already the highest priority production status that could be accorded any programme within the German armaments industry. I don't see how that equates to a failure "to ensure that the Me 262 was given priority over tanks and U-boats from the nickel supply viewpoint", or any other view point.

Programmes covered by Vulkan were: Me 163, Me 262, He 280, Me 328, Ar 234 and the engines, Jumo 004, BMW 003, BMW 018, HeS 001, DB 007, As 014.

The men who compiled that list did not have, as we do, the benefit of hindsight. Suffice to say that both the Me 262 and Jumo 004 had the highest possible priority within the German armaments industry from December 1942.

As for the other points you raised, someone else can answer them!

Cheers

Steve

The German engineers were trying to come out with weapons and weapon systems that German military wanted. Under the term 'German military' we can toss in Hitler, Goering, Doenitz etc. So when RLM orders a big bomber that can dive bomb, and there is a ~3000 HP engine in pipeline, what you do? come out with a bomber that can do what is wanted, on 2 such engines, hence the He 177. RLM/Goering/Hitler wants a jet propelled bomber? Produce it.

This is way of the mark:

- the failure of the V2 as a cost effective counter to the Allied strategic bombers. See below.

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They tried, it did not work; the V2 program strated oub before the ww2 anyway, so a paralel to the Allied bombers is off the mark.
Heer was of opinion that 75 mm cannon looked good on 45 ton tank, not so much; the heavy tanks will win the war - again a mistake. RAF BC tried to defeat Germany by destroying Berlin, didn't work out. IJN was preparing for the decisive blow vs. the USN, didn't work out. USAF was sure that bombers will carv their path into the enemy airspace, didn't work out.
Let's accuse those who proposed, designed and produced that for sabotage.

- the failure to develop a good creep-resistant alloy for fighter jet engine use, and to ensure that the Me 262 was given priority over tanks and U-boats from the nickel supply viewpoint

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Just how big the need for nickel is on the U-boot or on a tank?? If one does not have ample amounts of rare metals, why we should start accusing them for sabotage? As for the 'failure to develop' - let's accuse the Napier's engineers for Sabre's early troubles, Wright for R-3350 problems, BMW for BMW 801 problems, Klimov for VK-106/107/108 problems.

It was a hallmark facet of the german R&D effort that a lot of resources were wasted on projects that were of no immediate benefit to the war effort. this is in marked contrast to the allies where there was a ruthless and constant rationalisation of research to suit the immediate needs of the war. The result was that many German projects were of a significant technical interest, but really of a limited benefit to the needs of the war. one only needs to read some of the comments by Speer to pick up on that

From Galland:
"...At last, in August, 1944, the first Blitz; bombers went into action against the Allied invasion army, but the chances of a success had now become very meager because of the Allied advance. During these actions a few bombs were dropped daily somewhere on enemy territory. Very rarely was one able to say what, if anything, they had hit, or with what result. How different was the picture Göring had painted to us of "how the Führer sees the action!..."

Galland, Adolf . The First and The Last

With the positioning of the cockpit over the wing (poor vision of what he might possibly be aiming his bomb at), and its lack of dive bombing ability (no airbrakes), the Me 262 was, as Galland says, completely useless in the fighter-bomber role.